# Y'all Shootin Prairie Panthers



## 4Cody4 (Dec 24, 2012)

Allright guys, I picked up a prairie panther about 4 months ago. I have about 400 rounds down the tube so far, and the ammo I've tried to shoot for groups has not been stellar. I've shot the 55 gr fmj stuff I had, 40 gr vmax, 53gr superformance, and some Winchester 69 gr match ammo. Most of these only grouped around 2-3 inches at 100 yds. The fmj and 69 gr stuff was around 1.5-2" or so. I would have thought that the heavier rounds would have shot a little better. 

The 62 gr varmageddon is on my list to try, do you have any other suggestions for me? I want to narrow down my search if possible since I'll likely have to order it on line. I am looking for hunting ammo to shoot at coyotes. 

All groups were shot at 100 yards out of a Caldwell lead sled. I admit that I'm not a great rifle shot, but if the rifle was shooting moa, I'd think at least a group or two would show up using the lead sled. 

Any other suggestions are welcome. 

Thanks guys!


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## bar-d (Feb 3, 2010)

I assume it is a new rifle but first thing I would do is remove the hand guard and check the barrel nut to make sure it and the barrel are seated correctly. The nut should be at 35 ft lbs or better. Then check all the screws associated with your scope and mounts.

:hunter:


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## 4Cody4 (Dec 24, 2012)

Ill do that, thanks for the tip. I'm pretty sure the mount is set correctly and tight. I'll check the other nut this evening. 

Thanks again.


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## azpredatorhunter (Jul 24, 2012)

Try some Winchester Ballistic Silvertips...


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

What is the twist rate ?


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## 4Cody4 (Dec 24, 2012)

It's a 1:8. I know that 60-80 grain bullets are going to likely work best, but ammo selection here is limited right now. The rifle was bought new, I have a Trijicon 3x9x40 in a RRA one piece mount. I was just thinking it would handle some of this ammo a little better, but it may just be finnicky I guess.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

I'd stay away from the real heavy stuff. As far as factory ammo goes I can't really give any specific likes or dislikes.


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## 4Cody4 (Dec 24, 2012)

I picked up some 75 grain hornady rounds last night that I'm going to try today. If those don't group well, next on my list is a 60 grain vmax round. I still want to try the nosler 62 grain varmint rounds, but I can't find them anywhere.


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## knapper (Feb 5, 2010)

Nosler makes a 69 gr. target hollow point that will work pretty good accurcy wise, it is short and shoots very good. How it is on the down range results on animals is unknown to me so far. They are pretty easy to find. Also Remingtion makes a 62 gr. hollow point they call a match bullet that might work if you can find them.


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## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

I have had good groups with the 60grain vmax, but my savage has a 1 in 12 twist. Of course these are hand loaded bullets, not store bought.


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## 4Cody4 (Dec 24, 2012)

Thanks again for the ideas guys. I shot the 75 grain match ammo today and had mixed results. The groups were very good in regard to vertical movement, but they weren't very good left to right. I shot the 53 gr superformance again and it was still so so. My next move is to try something close to 60 grains and see how that goes. I'm still not very impressed by any of the ammo I've shot so far. I am wanting to get together with somebody who has more experience than me to see if I'm doing anything wrong. I also know that it could be the Indian and not the arrow, so I'd like someone else to shoot it.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

is the ammo 223 or 5.56 ?


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## 4Cody4 (Dec 24, 2012)

Has all been .223 ammo.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

And is your chamber a 223 or 5.56 or Wylde


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## 4Cody4 (Dec 24, 2012)

Says .223 or 5.56, does that mean its a wylde?


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Is that on the lower or the upper ?


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

No. Here is what people say.. the 223 chamber should only shoot 223 ammo, the 5.56 can shoot either. The difference is in the throat, the 5.56 being longer to accommodate the longer and heavier bullets used by the military(for down range effectiveness ) . The outer dimensions are the same on each case, with the 5.56 brass having a slightly thicker wall (in some instances) and a thicker web(base) giving it a smaller capacity for powder, which can raise pressures. Most manufacturers will void your warranty if you shoot 5,56 in a 223 upper.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Wylde


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## 4Cody4 (Dec 24, 2012)

It says it on the lower, I know that they aren't necessarily the same. I have not shot any 5.56 through it to date. I have been trying to find a good hunting round that groups well and .223 is all I've tried so far.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Look on your upper (usually on the barrel) it'll tell you what chamber you have (.223 or 5.56 or wylde). Have you tried the Fiocchi (sp) ? I've heard several guys who swear by it. I think they shoot 55gr, it's a v-max bullet.


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## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

Here is a chart of some of the dimensional differences.









Don't know if this will help you or not.


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## 4Cody4 (Dec 24, 2012)

I haven't tied the fiocchi ammo yet. I know that several folks have had good luck with ammo in the 62 gr range with the 1:8 twist barrel, so that's on my radar, I'll also see if I can find some fiocchi ammo to pick up as well. 

Thanks for posting that chart, it helps point out the differences, although they seem pretty similar in regard to dimensions. 

I may head to a local rifle range some upcoming weekend and see if I can steal a little knowledge from somebody there.


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## 4Cody4 (Dec 24, 2012)

Update: still no luck with this rifle. I shot my best group so far last night. Ultramax ammo with 50 grain nosler bullets. Out of the lead sled I got a 1.6" 5 shot group. I'm getting really frustrated especially since ammo selection is bad right now and I can't pick up the stuff I'd like to try first. I'll continue to post what I find out, and I'll try to make a list of what did and what did not work for me in my rifle. That way others can view it and see if that helps them at all. 


Sent from my BagPhone


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Ammo selection is coming back from what I've seen. Hopefully you'll get it dialed in. I like the list idea.


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## 4Cody4 (Dec 24, 2012)

Update: I got the rifle back from DPMS and they confirmed that the rifle is shooting where it is supposed to. They were able to get a 3 shot group at 100 yds of .434 inches. I put a new Warne skelmount on to lower the scope a bit and headed to the range to see if I could make this sucker shoot. Turns out that I couldn't because I drove the 30 minutes to the range and realized that I left my shooting bag on the counter  that means no bullets which equals no fun. Here is a copy of the target from dpms, now I just have to make one that looks like this myself.


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## A10hunter (Jan 30, 2013)

That's a good thing that you got confirmation that the gun is good to go, now just get your ammo and shoot with confidence. Oh ya, I hate when I forget stuff at home, only to realize it when I get to my hunting spot or the range. Crap happens once in a while, let us know how your next trip out goes.


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## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

I would have gone back and got the bullets and then back to the range. Then again the range I go to is only 6 miles from my house.


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## 4Cody4 (Dec 24, 2012)

It was too far to make it back home and then to the range before I ran out of light. At any rate, I wouldn't expect different results as they didn't change anything on the gun. After discussing with more experienced shooters, we are thinking that something isn't quite right with the gun. I am looking to get it sorted out with dpms. I either need to get this gun to shoot, or get dpms to take it back and find a gun that shoots where it's pointed.


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## A10hunter (Jan 30, 2013)

Hope you get it all worked out soon so you can get out hunting.


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## 4Cody4 (Dec 24, 2012)

Me too, it's starting to cool off here and I'm ready to start making stands. I've had this rifle since march, and I'm no closer to taking it hunting today than I was the day I picked it up.


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## sneakygroundbuzzard (Nov 1, 2012)

does your weapon have optics on it?

if so did DPMS shoot it with your optics on it?

according to thier test target that weapon is a great shooter

so if they didnt shoot it with your optics/sight on it,that could be the issue your having asnd not the weapon itself

just a thought

my oracle shoots better and better each time i take it to the range,still breaking the barrel in

only have about 60 rds thru it as of now,they say 100 rds to break it in

then i should be able to tell how good of a shooter it truly is

i will be happy with 1" or less at 100 yds

rifle season for deer is getting closer,so i need to finish breaking it in soon


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## 4Cody4 (Dec 24, 2012)

I have asked them to confirm they shot it with my optics and mount, I dropped it off with them attached. I took that scope off of a bolt rifle that shot fine, so I doubt it's the scope. But, anything is possible.

I also don't think it's a matter of breaking in the barrel. I have over 400 yards through the gun at this point.

I'm having a very experienced shooter take a look at the gun on Tuesday. He will try shooting a few groups and see how things turn out.


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## A10hunter (Jan 30, 2013)

With the target that DPMS sent back to you at .434 (which I would be thrilled with if I was shooting that good), and shooting from a led sled, it don't make sense. Optics or ammo, I don't know without being there. It's good that your having a very experienced shooter shoot it to see.


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## 4Cody4 (Dec 24, 2012)

Right, those are my thoughts exactly. I've shot two boxes of that same ammo specifically for groups. 40 round out of a lead sled. I would have to think that if its a .5" gun with this ammo, 3 rounds out of 40 would have been closer to eachother than 2 inches.

I'm stumped, and at this point ready to go hunt.


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## 4Cody4 (Dec 24, 2012)

Well, I almost hate to say it, but I think that I've got the rifle shooting acceptable groups. I was able to spend some time at the range with an experienced shooter and work on dialing in ammo. I had a few issues with where/how I was shooting at my other range, and we got those issues sorted out. The rifle seems to be performing as it should be. Attached is my best group with hunting ammo. It was just about 1.5" at 200 yards, and that was with me shooting. I now believe that the gun is capable of MOA or so and I just need to keep practicing. A better trigger may help me out as well. I'm at a point now where I'll continue to keep shooting the rifle and take it hunting.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

So what made the difference ?


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## sneakygroundbuzzard (Nov 1, 2012)

i knew that DPMS was capable of shooting

ya what was the differance


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## 4Cody4 (Dec 24, 2012)

My bench at home wasn't up to snuff apparently. It seemed plenty solid to me, but a nice concrete bench sure made a difference.

I had some low end Caldwell bags that are probably fine for sighting in, but the softer high quality bags I used last night also made a difference.

A larger target may have been the main item. I seemed to be having the most trouble recreating my sight picture on the small targets I was shooting at, especially with my hunting reticle. A larger target that helped me re center the cross hairs really helped.

Some minor adjustments to technique also helped.

I had an accu wedge in the gun...that got pitched into the garbage last night.

I learned more in 3-4 hours at range with an experienced shooter than I did all summer by myself swatting skeeters, sweating, and reading shooting articles.

I was put in touch with a competitive shooter through one of our members here, so many thanks to those who helped me get this sorted out.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Any tidbits you'd like to share ?


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## 4Cody4 (Dec 24, 2012)

Not sure what tidbits you have in mind, but if there is something specific let me know.

Advice for others, especially hunters like me who have had guns a long time (bolt guns) but aren't necessarily "shooters".

AR rifles are different from what I was used to. You will be time and money ahead to get some guidance from an accomplished rifle shot.

Spend the time shooting the rifle prior to hunting, you'll build confidence through shooting. You also owe it to the game you pursue. This will also identify any issues that either YOU or the gun may be having.

I learned last night that all conditions must be perfect for your rifle to shoot perfect. I guess that despite what you read on the Internet, a gun won't shoot 1" groups "any day of the week" even if it is a MOA rifle.

Go through the frustration of figuring out the querks of shooting a good group with the rifle that you bought. It will teach you a whole lot more than if you just sell the gun because it isn't a shooter.

If you have questions, ask people that have had similar experience to you. There are many opportunities to learn from others, but you'd be prudent to find the most relevant information from the most credible sources.


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## knapper (Feb 5, 2010)

Sounds like good advice for any rifle. Just because it is an auto loader does not mean that the first shot does not count due to possible follow up shots close at hand.


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## birddog (Jan 29, 2013)

Glad my brother was able to help you out.


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## 4Cody4 (Dec 24, 2012)

Yep, thanks again. He really warmed up when I set that case of beer on his tailgate!


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

I thought you might share some specific bits of info given to you by the "experienced"
Shooter. Let us know what you were doing wrong or right so perhaps someone here who has a greater than MOA gun might improve their group size. Many guys here probably are not very familiar with the AR style of rifle and could learn from what information you now posess.


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## 4Cody4 (Dec 24, 2012)

Most of the tips that I learned yesterday had more to do with a proper set up rather than the shooting itself. 

These are the 3 biggest items in regard to the shooting itself that I learned yesterday. 

Dry fire - do this several times before each shot for group to ensure things are as they should be. An AR has a longer hammer travel than a bolt gun, so staying on target is important. When dry firing, what you see when you hear the click is where your bullet is headed. So if the crosshairs cant or drop etc, you need to fix something. 

Grip - don't limp wrist it. The grip is there to squeeze and you want your finger pulling the trigger to do the same thing every time, and working independent of your other three fingers. Grip should be firm enough to make sure the rifle doesn't move and is pulled into your shoulder. 

Targets - this relates more to hunting optics, but a much larger target with some "land marks" on it really helped me shrink my groups. 

The biggest change for me was by far the trigger. It took a little instruction on what to pay attention to while working the trigger.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Those are good tips. As far as targets go I prefer to have a diamond to aim at( many of the orange stickers have them) your X hairs will dissect it at the points.


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## 4Cody4 (Dec 24, 2012)

Right, I agree. I personally need to have more to focus on lining up. Just trying to get my crosshairs centered on the bull did not cut it for me.


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## A10hunter (Jan 30, 2013)

Now you also need to practice shooting off sticks or whatever you will use hunting. I need more practice with the sticks at 200 and above because it my 1.5 inch group at 200 on a bench expands more than a few inches off my sticks. I don't feel too unsteady, but the wind affects me and the bullet in the area I have been hunting. More time behind the trigger is fine by me, and I don't have the sturdiest table and shooting rest out there. I am going to build something better soon I hope, and make my own bag rest. My buddy has the Caldwell tack-driver bags that I am going to borrow and try, anyone have any feedback on those? Also, now its time to get to callin Cody, when r u going out hunting next?


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## 4Cody4 (Dec 24, 2012)

I think I'll give it a try on Saturday. I'm waiting to order my new e call, so I'll just head out with the hand calls. Should be lots of fresh spots in my area this time of year.


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## 220swift (Mar 2, 2011)

sounds like a plan, we'll be waiting for the results............ :smile:


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