# Killing Power Rant



## Rediculous (Oct 16, 2013)

Hey guys,

I have seen a lot of post on hunting forums (not necessarily PT as much as others) which go after the "magical killing power" ratio for getting DRT kills on different game animals by cartridge. They usually go something like: bullet weight x bullet diameter x energy = a number and the larger the number the better it kills. This whole thing always adds up to faster bigger = better. And that may be the case if you were comparing a large difference in size like .117 vs .50, but the majority of hunting ammo excluding those for large dangerous game in Africa fall into a spread of only about a quarter inch difference diameter and speeds that are relatively close. These "killing power" numbers derive all of their credibility from the infamous BALLISTICS CHARTS. You type in you bullet and speed and viola...an energy level will be calculated at such distances and that is what people think kills the animal. The energy does matter but not nearly to the degree that most people like to think. This is my entire gripe with the whole thought process. How many of you have shot a deer at 100 yards or so with dads trusty 30-06? I know I have, and what happened, the bullet exited the animal and smashed into the ground throwing up dust and the deer was history. Let's talk about that bullet hitting the ground. If you typed a popular hunting round like sierra gameking 180 grain into your ballistics calculator you get something like this:

Range Velocity fps Energy ft/lbs

0 2700 2927

100 2518 2534

200 2337 2183

300 2164 1872

400 1999 1598

Note the ft/lbs of energy at ranges. That energy is the entirety of the bullets ability to travel. So if that hits a target and continues into the ground, then it did NOT deposit that number in the chart. This is where every single bigger is better caliber arguments gets it wrong. Did your 30-06 put 2,000 ft/lbs into the deer and 534 ft/lbs into the dirt, or the opposite? Their is no way to know this. Bullet design and structure are key to imparting energy and that is the major factor. All the hydrostatic hoopla is exactly that, a bunch of hype. Many studies have shown that hydrostatic shock exist but it is contained in a small area around the projectile and other studies have shown where squishy internal organs can take a lot of hydraulic trauma without rupture. So imo, the only way to get a clean kill is proper bullet placement on target and proper bullet selection. regardless of the "ethics" involved a .243 will kill as fast and as effectively as a .300 win. mag if implemented correctly. I am not knocking the guy that carries a 300 win mag, I know it has it's place and more power too you for it, but I don't like the people who think that's the only way it works. Theirs always another way to skin the cat and hunters are adaptive and creative, Anyways, I feel better now....


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## Rediculous (Oct 16, 2013)

Short said:


> And I've missed you too. :smiley-butt-whoopin:


I agree 100% with you!!! People are reliant on these things as though they are infallible...Nothing works in the field as it does in the lab, for anything. Shot placement is always the priority, then bullet construction. I'm just sick of seeing these threads for "magical" calibers that "always" work.

I missed you too short :beerchug:


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## JTKillough (May 4, 2010)

Simplified: If you intend to take large, tough, thick skinned animals, you will need a large, tough, thick skinned bullet. The size and weight of the bullet you use, will determine the size of cartridge needed to generate enough velocity to be lethal at range, yet, economical. Lets examine the "dead right there" scenario. Getting that one shot and dead right there kill, takes on two scenarios. One shot through the brain and the animal will drop, thus taking out the computer and rendering said animal immobile and to all accounts, dead. This is a one shot, DRT. An animal shot "through the vitals, may and could still, take more than a few steps before the brain shuts down. This is not a one shot, dead right there, kill. The second scenario is more complex. This is an animal shot and the bullet hitting the heart or very close to it. This creates a shock wave that generates a huge pressure spike throughout the vascular system that essentially blows the blood vessels in the brain apart. This brings rapid dead, more or less instantly. But, in order to produce this pressure spike there are special factors involved, the most important of which is that the heart be on the constricting side of of the beat. That being, pushing the blood out and the corresponding valves closed. This will be a one shot DRT. What are you chances of hitting the vascular system at the right time? 50/50. This is what is referred to as "hydrostatic" shock. Can you drive a light 85 grain 6mm bullet deep into the chest of an elk and still have enough energy to explode blood vessels in the brain? Probably not, the bullet would come apart soon after hitting the hide. You could put a hole on the heart, and then track the animal a few yards to its death. But that isn't a DRT. Is shot placement important? Always. But you also need to have a bullet big enough to do the job, humanely. A lot of folks simply hate recoil, that in itself can cause bad shooting and misplaced shots, wounding animals. So this must also be considered. To take animals humanely and ethically, bring the gun you are most comfortable with. Use a caliber suitable for the game you intend to take and range you intend to shoot. Lastly....Practice! If recoil is your enemy, buy a bigger gun and shoot it....Often.


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## Rediculous (Oct 16, 2013)

JTKillough,

Good explanations, I agree generally with everything you stated. I will point out one of my favorite shot placements when practical: The high neck shot: This shot, when it presents it's self as possible and a confident, practiced shooter can take it, give imo the greatest killing potential. The large artery's of the circulatory are constricted here and bunched together, a hit here is very likely the give "hydrostatic" damage as the distance to the brain is shortened and the blood is under fair pressure. Also, the spine and airways are in proximity, so any fragmentation that enters these areas results quick death. I have not had the pleasure of hunting elk or moose, but white tails and hogs I have taken with this shot have dropped in their tracks. But, as I stated, this is a difficult shot and not always available in the field.

Thanks for the replies


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## sneakygroundbuzzard (Nov 1, 2012)

the neck shot is what most native americans would do on deer and elk sized game

they did this with bow and arrow,virtually no hydrostatic shot factor inlvolved

they did this because the chance of hitting the spinal column or a major artery was greater and paralysis or bleed out would be quiker

for buffalo they would shoot for the lungs

if they hit one lung,they hit both as the lungs in a bison are connected and not seperated like other mamals

thus causing the animal to run a very short distance before hitting the dirt

i agree that modern hunters need to choose the right caliber for the game they are hunting,but shot placement is still the number one consideration in hunting any animal


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## hassell (Feb 9, 2010)

Very good writeup JT as usual. I would guess 90% of all the large game I have taken were neck shots, if the game is too far I just sneak in closer, just the way I was taught. If things don't work out there is always another day.


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## OHIOOutdoors2 (May 1, 2013)

^^^^^^^ If I could like from the mobile version I would


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## 22magnum (Feb 10, 2013)

All kidding aside shoot whatever your comfortable with.

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk


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## Sosalty (Jan 22, 2014)

Whether you have 2000ft/lbs in the deer and 500ft/lbs in the dirt or vice versa (non-expanding shotgun slug) is a good topic starter. Genrally, pass thru shot with a bullet that expands somewhat, after exit is not going to run far (decently placed hits). Place your shot in the forward third of the game with a quality hunting bullet and whala.

What are the effects of say a V-max bullet that splash fragments excessively, particularly if a bone is struck? Would 300ft/lbs in a coyote or 900ft/lbs on a deer be enough?

What about marginal firepower? A 22 Hornet retains 200ft/lbs @ 200yds whereas a .17Hornet retains 300ft/lbs. Which has more rapid killing power say on coyotes?

Is the ft/lbs calculation the holy grail of killing power?


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## glenway (Mar 27, 2011)

Just a note on neck shots. If you look at a skeletal diagram of a neck on a deer-sized animal, you'll see that the portion just below the head (C3 and C4 vertebrae) presents the largest target - even though the neck itself is actually smaller. So, if you must, the best chance for a clean kill is where that white patch is on the front of the neck. Makes a nice target.

Where people get into trouble is when they think anywhere in the neck is a good shot. Look at a skeletal drawing and you'll see that hitting the neck bone can be tricky and can cause wounding, if not done correctly.

Aiming at the top of the neck is a hit or miss proposition - either DRT or off and running. It's not my first choice but it can work, if only a rear or frontal shot is offered. Way better than a Texas heart shot.


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## hassell (Feb 9, 2010)

I agree in the boiler is the spot to aim for, old habits are sometimes hard to break, quick dispatch is the name of the game.


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## catcapper (Feb 11, 2010)

Welcome to PT Sosalty.

Now your get'in into sectional density with the .22 Hornet and the .17.

awprint:


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## JTKillough (May 4, 2010)

We could literally calculate this thing to DRT. All calculations aside, speed doesn't necessarily equal power or energy. Bullet bulk and mass can deliver a huge amount of energy at slow fps. It's tit for tat. I used to run a .223 WSSM (thats Winchester Super Short Magnum). My first bullet of choice was the 50 grain Sierra Blitzking beings this was a predator hunting rifle exclusively. I could generate enough velocity to push the 50grs at just barely under 4000 fps. I had a decent group at 3840 fps and ran with that. The first coyote I called in using my new slayer was a hard charger that ran into my Blitzking at 25 yards, quartering. I knocked him ass over tea kettle with a good shot. He then laid still. DRT? No, to my shock, he stood and retreated, rather quickly, only to be finished by my partner at 140 yards. I checked the carcass for my shot, it was good, but I had hit the upper leg and the bullet blew up, tearing a huge chunk of coyote off. Bad bullet choice? Too much speed? Both! I slowed it down to 3700 with a 55 grain Sierra Gameking. Tougher bullet. Slower speed. No more runners. So why have a fast gun? The answer is, distance. Speed equates to point blank range out to a farther distance. No hold over. Or should I say, less hold over. If you intent to shoot vermin at long range, then speed is good. If you intend to shoot hard chargers, close enough to bite, slow it down and bulk it up. I guess what I'm saying is, "Opt for the correct type of bullet and cartridge for the game you pursue, and place your shot well." It doesn't take much study to find a good caliber for any particular game species. The tried and true calibers are generally the best. Just remember, the hot rods and forgotten wildcats come and go. If they are good enough to stay, you can buy rifles and cartridges for them at Walmart.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Well said JT.


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## Rediculous (Oct 16, 2013)

Very good points by everyone...The message I was conveying is simply that energy calculations mean nothing if the projectile doesn't deposit it. The very reason "slow" cartridges work better some times is they generally deposit all of their energy where a "fast" projectile can pass through only depositing some of it's energy. The military is very familiar with this and it has contributed to numerous caliber changes over the years. They are still looking for the "magic bullet". density of the target, sectional density of the projectile, energy, speed, target angle all contribute to what the terminal ballistic performance will be. This is why shot placement and marksmanship will always reign supreme.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Rarely are two shots the same other than at paper.


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## hassell (Feb 9, 2010)

Some well thought out replies, thanks for sharing.


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## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

Interesting conversation. I have never given it much thought. I have contemplated, while sitting in my chair deer hunting, why some deer shot at 50 yards make if farther than ones taken at 200 yards. All things equal with exception of yardage.


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## NattyB (Jan 5, 2012)

Few Points: (My Rant)

***Please Midway customers...I cannot take another .30 Cal bullet review where you drop some 8 Pntr DRT from your whatever mag. Most centerfire .22-.44 caliber will kill a whitetail straight-up with good shot placement. Most hunters are completely over-gunned.

I cannot count how many vehicle struck deer, I've put down with a single 9mm or .40 S&W double-lung shot. (Once shot 5 in one night.)

As far as Killing, as mentioned there are many variables. Bullets kills from:

1) Tissue/Organ damage

2) Blood Loss

3) Shock

On shock, there is an over-pressure of the system that can occur and produce a coma-like response. Some animals recover from this, others don't. It doesn't always happen.

On Organ/Tissue damage, it really depends on what you hit and how your bullet performs. The saying is "speed kills", but anyone with shooting experience also knows speed does funny things, when metal and other objects are involved. (We have all marveled about the unique thing a bullet did after inspection of a shot. Like Don said, this is not shown on paper. Once had a 7.63x39mm rd spinning on the ice down range after we made everything safe and walked to the 100. Heard this funny buzzing and the lil guy was still spinning.) Bullet construction and shot placement is a big deal. There is a good site to check out for this: *Terminal Ballistics Research*.

On blood loss, we know this stuff, but muscle and gut wounds are usually poor bleeders. Also angle and height of wounds on the animals have much to do with what type of trail you get. Low exits usually leave good trails if a decent organ was hit. I also believe rifle shot animals have more of a startle hit response compared to archery hit animals. Often arrow wounds are not painful and on a clean pass-through, the animal is not sure what just happened. Attended a seminar on gun-shot wounds put on by a trauma surgeon. He said two things that stood out,

#1) It's very difficult to tell what type of round/caliber did the damage if it's a pass-through...all bullet wounds look bad.

#2) Organ damage from a bullet can have very inconsistent affects (Not all liver injuries the same.)

I don't believe in a mathematical calculation to determine exact killing effectiveness. I think it's some people nature to want to know what the scientific solution is to everything and as mentioned, there are too many variables.

A game warden buddy of mine puts almost everything down with a .22 Mag.

With all this said, the Sierra Manual shows that every cartridge has it's sweet spot of speed (FPS) and Bullet GRN for optimum FT LBS. Once that is figured, then the issue is bullet construction and shot placement. You should keep within the limitations of the cartridge, the bullet and most importantly the shooter. I definitely tailor my bullets to the type of critter I'm hunting.

I'm done for now.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Nice rant Natty. Very informative.


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## Antlerz22 (Apr 18, 2011)

Ok late response, been on an extended hiatus. Anyway-I went on a moose hunt in Alaska with a friend who lives there. I asked him before I went if my .270 was under gunned for moose, he said no that people shoot them with .270's quite a bit there. As mentioned, bullet placement and type/construction are absolutes when choosing. So I chose factory rounds in Hornady Superformance GMAX .270gr at 3190 fps. Shot my moose at apx 70 yds, quartering from my right to my left facing me, had he kept walking straight he would have passed 15yds to my left. Anyway he was standing still, listening and looking towards my buddy behind me another 40 yds calling him. I shot him right of center breast/brisket trying to imagine the bullet path through him into vitals. I shot and he shuddered instantly, took two steps back and dropped from sight. I reloaded went to him fast and watched him take one last big breath and let it out and never moved again. As Tom cleaned it (he wouldn't let me do anything, just had surgery 5 weeks before, umbilical hernia fixed) he reached in the front chest cavity and made a weird sound, then pulled out the heart which my bullet had severed where all the arteries etc.. were attached. It was literally loose in there. So that proved to me that its not so much caliber or even speed, but bullet design (mine was a monolithic style, solid construction-no lead) designed for deep penetration--AND shot placement. After that I felt a whole lot better with brown bears and grizzlies in the woods. Sorry for the long story, but also wanted to share that. Pictures will be loaded when I get them off my phone, a real camera was considered too much for a boonies pack, and phones today are decent for that.


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## Antlerz22 (Apr 18, 2011)

My lifelong friend Tom on the left, me on the right.









Shot was base of neck and top of brisket.


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## Antlerz22 (Apr 18, 2011)

Oppss


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Great pics 22. ! Congrats again on your moose !


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## Antlerz22 (Apr 18, 2011)

youngdon said:


> Great pics 22. ! Congrats again on your moose !


Thanks Don, wont EVER go moose hunting again. More preparation and work than the average hunter can possibly imagine. I thought a big deer was tough to hunt and pack out--its a cake walk compared.









Toms sons friend packing out the head for me, its the last thing you LEGALLY can pack out AFTER all meat has been FIRST. The 3rd point left brow tine on antler, made the bull legal, otherwise spread would have to have been 50"....my bull was 35".


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## azpredatorhunter (Jul 24, 2012)

Nice Antlerz22 ... Now I'll see if a 20GA will work for coyotes, if I call one in close enough in the morning.


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## Antlerz22 (Apr 18, 2011)

azpredatorhunter said:


> Nice Antlerz22 ... Now I'll see if a 20GA will work for coyotes, if I call one in close enough in the morning.


Thanks azpredatorhunter, not sure what size buckshot available in stores. But for close in I would think T buck or F buck if you reload, should be big enough and have enough pellets to pattern and dispatch quickly.


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## azpredatorhunter (Jul 24, 2012)

Antlerz22 said:


> Thanks azpredatorhunter, not sure what size buckshot available in stores. But for close in I would think T buck or F buck if you reload, should be big enough and have enough pellets to pattern and dispatch quickly.


 Your welcome... There's not much of a choice for a 20GA, I am going to take my daughter's 20GA in the morning, I don't plan on shooting anything over twenty-five yards, all I have for it is 3" #2 buck, 18 pellets I believe, or I have some 2 3/4" #3 buck w/ 20 pellets. I tried to pattern the gun at 40 yards with the 3" #2 buck and it didn't do well, so I won't shoot it past twenty-five yards.


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## knapper (Feb 5, 2010)

I hunt with a 260 rem. for most stuff up here. 45/70 for my back up rifle.


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## hassell (Feb 9, 2010)

Congrats. on the moose, shot many of them when living up North.


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## azpredatorhunter (Jul 24, 2012)

Well a 20GA shooting 3" # 2 buck works great DRT at 27 paces. I wouldn't shoot any farther than that.


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## texaspredatorhunter (Aug 14, 2014)

Congrats to both!


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## Indiana Jones (Aug 28, 2014)

None of you have any idea what you are talking about. Why my buddy bubba hit a 16 point blackface whitetail buck in the eye at 1300 yards and dropped him dead. You just gotta arch it up enough. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Antlerz22 (Apr 18, 2011)

azpredatorhunter said:


> Well a 20GA shooting 3" # 2 buck works great DRT at 27 paces. I wouldn't shoot any farther than that.


Nice job, how many pellets found the mark?


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## Antlerz22 (Apr 18, 2011)

knapper said:


> I hunt with a 260 rem. for most stuff up here. 45/70 for my back up rifle.


My friend Tom in Wasilla, Alaska uses a .338 and a .375 ruger, his sidearm is a colt python .357. He has bait stations he runs, and invited me for a bear hunt one day. Might do it (black bear) Tom could "guide"(he's not a guide), as brown or grizzly require a licensed guide. BTW I now am a fan of moose spaghetti, meatloaf (moose mixed with burger), and delicious black bear--he had some from a hunt of his.

Here is the camp he had set up for my moose hunt.

Sleeping tent was actually a "cheap" car garage, as was the kitchen.

















Notice the red Dixie cups hung upside down from the branches. They were all around camp. Under the cup was a tampon we pissed on to hold human scent and put off/deter bears from camp. Had to slide cup up the string, pee on tampon, let cup drop--cup kept rain and dew from diluting removing scent.









This was our dining area tarped over and next to tent.









My friend Tom and his son.


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## hassell (Feb 9, 2010)

Wow pretty fancy, not far from town, even brought the bbq, no fire pit? Great pic's, thanks for sharing.


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## Antlerz22 (Apr 18, 2011)

hassell said:


> Wow pretty fancy, not far from town, even brought the bbq, no fire pit? Great pic's, thanks for sharing.


Was in a remote area (50+ miles NNW of Wasilla), but right off a tributary of the Susitna river. Tom said it took 5 trips to get everything hauled in by boat. Camp was 30 yards off that tributary on a low bluff. Toms son is stoking the "firepit", it was a setup for home use on a porch. Worked perfect and had miniature expanded metal screening around and a solid top/bottom on 2ft legs. Never took any pics of the latrine, he aced that as well. BTW, Tom had this All already setup before I arrived, a true host in every sense of the word. I would have helped, but he didn't even give me the opportunity. No problem on the sharing...heres a funny pic I took on "The Spit" down in Homer, AK at the "Salty Dawg Saloon" on a table in back.

Makes one think of the TV ad for "pork the other white meat" LOL









And if you think you're the only one from somewhere, at a unique/remote area----think again. I'm from Alabama, college football is HUGE here, as is our "touchdown mantra" of "Roll Tide". Enter this picture:


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## azpredatorhunter (Jul 24, 2012)

Nice setup. I am not believing the tampon story ????...


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Antlerz22 said:


> Makes one think of the TV ad for "pork the other white meat" LOL


....No.... No it doesn't.....lol


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## hassell (Feb 9, 2010)

A true host indeed, memories to last a lifetime. Very nice setup.


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