# Bullet Crush Problem



## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

After I bought the OAL gauge and modified cases, I wanted to load a heavier hollow point bullet for my AR15. (for deer hunting mainly) I took the AR apart and gave it a good cleaning and then using the OAL gauge and the bullet I picked out, I proceeded to take some measurements (measured 10 times with 5 different bullets) and I came up with an COL of 2.230 with the bullet just touching the lands. I adjusted my seater/crimper die to make the COL 2.229 using an empty trimmed and cleaned case. I made 5 of them to make sure I had the die adjusted properly. Knocked the bullets out of the case and ran them through the neck sizer. Rechecked the length of the case and they are all 1.750, the same as the modified case for the OAL gauge. I then primed some cases to load up using Hornady's manual for the 68 gn BTHP bullet using IMR4895 powder. The manual said 24.2 gn for a 2700 fps cartridge so I weighed out 24 gn to start with.









I loaded one with the 24 gn and seated the bullet but it just didn't feel right. When I took the cartridge out of the press the bullet was smashed. I put 24 gn of IMR4895 in another case and looked inside to see that the case was just about up to the neck with powder which left no room for the bullet to go. I then backed down to 23 gn and had the same crush on the bullet just not as bad due to the lower volume of powder. I loaded one with 22 gn (not even on the load table) and still had slight deformation of the bullet. The photos below are the 24 gn (top) and the 23 gn along with just a bullet.









The close up isn't the best photo as I only have the camera on my phone.









Does any one have an explanation for this problem. I have double checked all my measurements and settings so I am not sure what happened here.


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## Varmintnv (Aug 17, 2012)

Why are you putting that much pressure on the handle while seating bullets? Looks like your gonna have to switch to a faster burning powder so you have more room in the case for that long bullet to seat deep enough. Make sure the load info your using is for a gas gun and not a bolt action. The newest Hornady book has load info for both.

Life's too short not to hunt coyotes!


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## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

Thats where I got the load data from, the latest Hornady manual. The part I was looking at is for the AR15 Service rifles.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Does the crushed part of the bullet go around the whole bullet (on all sides). You don't get any marks when seating in an empty case?

On a side note, Ive never tried using a neck sizer on brass for a semi auto. I don't believe it is recommended, But if it works for you......


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## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

Yes it is all the way around. And no marks on the bullet in an empty case.

I neck size all my cases for all my rifles, I guess that's what I was taught to do to make sure the bullet stays in place.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

As for powder. I'v enever loaded a bullet that heavy in a 223. do you have any other of the powders listed ? One that would fill the case less but still give the proper push ?

I neck size for alll my bolt and single shots. It (FL SIZING )sizes the entire case, neck included. FL sizing does work the brass more but will also ensure that your case feeds more reliably in a semi auto.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Sorry ...reread I mis typed


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## texaspredatorhunter (Aug 14, 2014)

Looking at Speer no. 13 manual for 62 and 70 grain with IMR 4895, 24.5 is both maxed and compressed. Speer says 22.5 on a 70 gem semi spitz-sp. me personally I would go 62grn rounds.


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## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

Unfortunately I don't have any of the other powders listed for this bullet. Just makes me wonder if the book is wrong or what the story is. One thing I thought of is my AR is a .223/5.56 chamber. Is the .223 modified case giving me a false length reading in this chamber? The COL listed is 2.250 and I was trying to load to 2.229.


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## fr3db3ar (Aug 6, 2011)

I think that's very strange. Those bullets looks very long. I load 69 SMK to mag length with some compression of varget but it doesn't take any serious pressure to seat them.

Sent from somewhere in the time space continuum


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## fr3db3ar (Aug 6, 2011)

I run LC once fired brass to 223 specs in my AR without issue. Did you buy a 5.56 trim gauge? I guess I'm confused.

Sent from somewhere in the time space continuum


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## fr3db3ar (Aug 6, 2011)

The drawings I find say the single difference is the neck length by .002. All other dimensions including oal are the same.

Sent from somewhere in the time space continuum


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## JTKillough (May 4, 2010)

You need to be looking at the 5.56mm NATO data if that rifle is labeled 5.56mm. Although they don't list IMR4895, it appears that the loads listed are somewhat less than the .223 Service Rifle data, for the same weight bullet. I have no answer as to why. But it is obvious that the .223 SR data is not right for your chamber. I will dig further.

I'm back now. What type of brass are you using? If it be military 5.56mm then I believe that is the problem. All outward dimensions of the 5.56 nato and .223 rem are exactly alike, but the 5.56 case is thicker walled and therefore unable to hold the same volume as the .223 rem. Yet, the reduced charge weight can generate the same pressure. This is why you cannot use a 5.56 nato brass in a .223 rifle. Although they are virtually the same outwardly, your normal .223 charge could easily damage the gun.


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## pokeyjeeper (Sep 5, 2013)

Some thing is off all my books show 1.760 to the shoulder so your short .010 there and to me your chamber seems short for an ar15 what is the head stamp on your brass 223 or 5.56 and you should be full length sizeing your brass in a seme auto imo and are you getting you oal off the o-give of the bullet that seems short to me also as my books show me an oal of 2.260


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## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

fr3db3ar said:


> I think that's very strange. Those bullets looks very long. I load 69 SMK to mag length with some compression of varget but it doesn't take any serious pressure to seat them.
> 
> Sent from somewhere in the time space continuum


Fred, The bullets are Hornady #2278, 68gr BTHP and they measure 0.984 long. I didn't put too much pressure on them when I loaded them. I stopped when it didn't "feel" right.



Short said:


> .223 cases cannot be used to load for 5.56. The shoulders are different. So if you resize a .223 case to 5.56 specs....the case will be shorter.


I am using Winchester 223 REM cases, my rifle is stamped 223/5.56



JTKillough said:


> You need to be looking at the 5.56mm NATO data if that rifle is labeled 5.56mm. Although they don't list IMR4895, it appears that the loads listed are somewhat less than the .223 Service Rifle data, for the same weight bullet. I have no answer as to why. But it is obvious that the .223 SR data is not right for your chamber. I will dig further.
> 
> I'm back now. What type of brass are you using? If it be military 5.56mm then I believe that is the problem. All outward dimensions of the 5.56 nato and .223 rem are exactly alike, but the 5.56 case is thicker walled and therefore unable to hold the same volume as the .223 rem. Yet, the reduced charge weight can generate the same pressure. This is why you cannot use a 5.56 nato brass in a .223 rifle. Although they are virtually the same outwardly, your normal .223 charge could easily damage the gun.


My rifle is stamped .223/5.56 but I have only use the .223 cartridges in it. The brass I am using is Winchester 223 REM head stamp.

I think you might be on to something with the thicker wall. I read some articles about the best brass to use and it listed Lapoua (sp) as the best and then Winchester due to the wall thickness and the ability to be reloaded multiple times. But even if that is the case, why was there bullet deformation when I tried to load 22 gn of powder? Granted it wasn't much but there was still some.



pokeyjeeper said:


> Some thing is off all my books show 1.760 to the shoulder so your short .010 there and to me your chamber seems short for an ar15 what is the head stamp on your brass 223 or 5.56 and you should be full length sizeing your brass in a seme auto imo and are you getting you oal off the o-give of the bullet that seems short to me also as my books show me an oal of 2.260


Ya my book lists 1.760 max length to the shoulder also but the trim to length is 1.750 and that's where I start as I have my die set to give a slight taper crimp at that length. I trim every case every time I reload one. (Must be my OCD or as some people say "anal") But I want everything to be the same every time I reload a cartridge. I am getting my OAL or COL from the tip of the bullet to the end of the case. The load data chart I put in the 1st post shows an COL of 2.250 also.

Also my rifle is a DPMS Panther with a 16" barrel.


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## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

Short said:


> So your rifle says .223/5.56 on the barrel? So you have a 5.56 chamber which is slightly larger and has a different angle in the throat area than a .223 chamber does. A .223 chamber has a throat angle of 3.1 where as a 5.56 chamber has a throat angle of 2.5. Maybe this info will help you....maybe not. I'm stumped. Honestly, if you want to shoot precision hand loaded rounds....an AR is not your best bet.


Well I really don't want to shoot for precision with the AR, I was just trying to get the bullet jump down to a minimum to see if that would help some with the accuracy. Not that it is that bad with this rifle, just trying to get the best I can out of it. I wanted to use the heavier, longer bullets in it for deer. I have already harvested deer with the AR using 60 gn soft point bullets.

But the whole point of this thread is to see if anyone can tell me why the Hornady manual gives me the load data for the 68gn bullet and I used my OAL gauge with the .223 modified case and the 68 gn bullet to get the max length I could load too. And when I set up my dies to the specs I measured and put powder in the case, the bullet get deformed. According to my measurements (measured 2.230 with OAL gauge) if I load to a COL of 2.250, when the round goes into battery, it would be into the lands by 0.020. Does this make sense?


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## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

Thanks Short for the info on the differences in the chamber and the cases.

So I probably am getting goofy readings due to the fact I have a 5.56 chamber and I am using a .223 modified case to measure the OAL for the bullet I wanted to use?

I'm getting more :nut: trying to figure this out.

Maybe I should try this bullet in the 22-250 except it has a 1-12 twist and the AR has a 1-9 twist so I didn't think that heavy of a bullet would work in the 250. Was always told and have read that 60 gn is the max for a 1-12 in the 250.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Is it the upper or the lower that is marked 223/5.56. Is this a gun you bought whole from a manufacturer or did you build it. ?


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## fr3db3ar (Aug 6, 2011)

What I find weird is the fact that I load my 69s to mag length ( any longer and I'd have to single feed ) and they are nowhere near the lands. I don't know the actual measurement on my chamber but I load a 75 gr and it didn't touch.

Sent from somewhere in the time space continuum


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## glenway (Mar 27, 2011)

Trying to squeeze the most accuracy from your AR is sensible but nowhere have I read if you are using a bullet comparator with your new measuring tools.

Bullets themselves can vary in length by up to .015". If you want a reliable reference point, it can only be found at the bullet's ogive - not its tip! Comparators resolve this issue and permit measuring length from the bullet's ogive - not the tip.

However, I don't believe this is your issue of bullet deformation.

Based on your original post, it would seem that the issue is case capacity. IMR 4895 is extruded powder, and therefore, can be somewhat haphazard in filling space. It can be made to settle and, in effect, will produce more space for the bullet, if you can gently tap the case without spilling the powder. I just tried it with a full case-load of IMR 4895 and an empty .223 case and the powder level dropped quite a bit.

I doubt if anyone would want to go through all this, and since you are already at the maximum length, the only adjustments in overall cartridge length would be to make them shorter, which would make the bullet crushing issue worse.

Another powder choice seems to be in order. Also, you may want to adjust your seating die to allow a bit more bullet jump and make adjustments from there, instead of starting so tight to the lands. Obviously, IMR 4895 may not let you do this, but another better-metering powder may.


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## JTKillough (May 4, 2010)

By using a longer drop tube when filling the case, the powder will "stack up" better and take less volume. Maybe you could give this a try.


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## prairiewolf (Feb 19, 2012)

Just a suggestion, call Hornady ! I have called them before on loads and they are very glad to help.


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## glenway (Mar 27, 2011)

Good idea, Ed. Or, Sierra at 800-223-8799.


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## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

Thanks for the help guys. I am going to pick up the bullet comparator this weekend and start over with the measurements as I have been measuring to the end of the bullet not on the ogive.

So when the book says C.O.L 2.250 is that from the base of the case to the end of the bullet or is the from the base of the case to the point on the ogive where it would touch the lands? I just finished rereading the Hornady reloading manual and didn't see any reference to that measurement as to where it starts and ends.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

To the end of the bullet.


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## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

YD, Thats what I thought.

I picked up the comparator and did some measuring tonight and things don't make sense to me at all. With the .223 modified case on the OAL gauge, I seated the case in the AR chamber and with the 68 gn BTHP bullet in the case, I gently pushed it up until it touched the lands. Locked the screw down and measured with the comparator on my caliper (zeroed it according to the instructions) and the reading was 2.820. I checked it 5 times with different bullets and came up with the same reading (within +/- .002) every time. I then checked it with the 60 gn soft points I use and had the same 2.820 reading. When I checked the cartridges I tried to load I have the following measurements with the 68 gn BTHP bullet;

24 gn IMR4895 powder = 2.857 and a COL of 2.232 which means when cambered the bullet would be shoved into the rifling 0.037 if I am doing the math right.

23 gn IMR4895 powder = 2.845 and a COL of 2.232, which means 0.025 too long

22.5 gn of IMR4895 powder = 2.830 and a COL 2.230, which means 0.010 too long

But yet the Hornady reloading manual, 9th edition, on page 154 says they used the Winchester cases also and they only list the 68, 70, 75, and 80 gn bullets there. Does any one else have that manual and does it say the same info?

I think the bottom line is I can't use this bullet and powder combination in my AR unless I am missing something here.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

24 gn IMR4895 powder = 2.857 and a COL of 2.232 which means when cambered the bullet would be shoved into the rifling 0.037 if I am doing the math right

In this example what is the 2.875 figure ?


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## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

That is the measurement of the cartridge I tried to load with the comparator.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Give me a sec. I'll switch to a computer.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

I'm looking at manuals but most have just 223 listed. Still looking...Have you tried to settle the powder. I hae no idear why the manual lists that powder as a choice... I get a compressed load but that seems rediculous....


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## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

Ya all my other manuals have just the 223 listed also. I saw this in the 9th addition of Hornady's manual so I bought that one. Before that I was using the load data for a 223 Remington and was told that is for a bolt action and not for the gas operated AR's. Thats why I was trying to load these bullets as per the manual.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

I hate to say it but I think you need to change powders. Do you have any others available ?

What twist is your barrel ? 1/7 ?


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## glenway (Mar 27, 2011)

Changes in measurements with the comparator but *not* the overall cartridge lengths is what does not make sense. If the bullets are still being crushed, I would think that the comparator measurements would be longer as you lighten the powder charges. However, the reverse seems to be true.

If you are still crushing bullets, it would be at the bullet's ogive, where the comparator measures and your bullet seater die engages the bullet.

If you are measuring correctly with the comparator, how can the overall cartridge length be relatively the same, while the measurements with the comparator change in what seems to be in reverse proportion?

In reading my older Hornady manual, Winchester 748 powder is listed as a good choice for accuracy throughout bullet weight ranges (although my manual doesn't list the heavier bullet you have chosen). And, even though the powder weights are relatively the same for W 748 and IMR 4895, the Winchester is a ball powder and will take up much less space in the case and may therefore put an end to this nightmare.

I'd still be interested in what the experts at Hornady or Sierra have to say about all this, if you get the chance to find out.


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## knapper (Feb 5, 2010)

I have loaded some with IMR 4895 but, with lighter bullets and have had good results. Lighter being 55 gr.


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## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

YD, I have to agree that a powder change is in order and the twist in my rifle is 1-9.

Glen, The overall length stayed the same because that is what I have the seater set to. The ogive readings changed because the bullet is deformed due to the seater pushing the bullet up against the powder and the lead inside the jacket was literally pushed down and swelled the jacket so the measurement point on the ogive moved up towards the tip of the bullet. I was just down in the reloading room and took measurements and that is what it looks like happened.

I am going to try and call Hornady about this on Monday (any one have a phone number for their tech service department) and will let you guys know what they said.

Knapper, I have also used the 4895 powder with the 55 and 60 gn with no problems but the Hornady manual doesn't even list them for the AR service rifle. I was using the 223 Remington load data but I have been told and have read that info is for a bolt action gun and not a gas action gun.


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## glenway (Mar 27, 2011)

You're on the right track, DW. Good luck!


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

1-800-338-3220. This is Hornady CS...


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## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

Thanks for the number, I guess I could have looked it up on their site also.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

That is just CS. If you don't get an answer call Sierra. They will help even if it's
Not their bullet.


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## noylj (Nov 12, 2012)

I know that I am missing something, but you are supposed to START WITH THE STARTING LOAD AND WORK UP. In fact, I always check at least two manuals and start with the lowest starting load.

Your own manual says to START at 22.6 gn.


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## hassell (Feb 9, 2010)

noylj said:


> I know that I am missing something, but you are supposed to START WITH THE STARTING LOAD AND WORK UP. In fact, I always check at least two manuals and start with the lowest starting load.
> 
> Your own manual says to START at 22.6 gn.


 Welcome to PT, enjoy the site. A good point!!!


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Welcome to the forum noylj.

:lurk:


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## glenway (Mar 27, 2011)

You are correct, noylj; you are missing something: "I loaded one with 22 gn (not even on the load table) and still had slight deformation of the bullet."


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## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

Welcome noylj to the site. And I did try 22 gn of powder and still had slight bullet crush. Going to call Hornady on Monday and see what is going on.


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## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

Well I talked to the Hornady customer service department today and found out the whole problem is because of my seater stem (or at least thats what the rep thinks is going on). After I explained to him what I was doing as far as the loads go, he informed me all of the loads for IMR4895 are compressed loads and if my seater stem didn't match the profile of the 68 BTHP bullet, it was going to deform them. Makes sense to me after he told me all of the loads are compressed (even the 22.6 gn load).

Now to find a new seater stem to match the Amax and the 68 BTHP bullets. I am going to search the RCBS web site to see what I can find.

Anyone else have any suggestions as to where I can find a different seater stem?


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

I don't suppose Hornady makes one.


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## glenway (Mar 27, 2011)

Now, wasn't that easy? Had a similar problem (but no actual crushing) with my 300-grain tipped Barnes bullets in the .45-70 Contender loads and bored out the seating die. I wouldn't recommend it though but it still works on more conventional bullets.


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## knapper (Feb 5, 2010)

You may have to go to a compation seating die to get the angle right they are made for long nosed bullets.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Competition


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## 220swift (Mar 2, 2011)

Welcome to the PT forum noylj.


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## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

Well I searched the RCBS web site and they don't have one for the Amax bullets, just there standard seater stem. RCBS could make a custom stem for me but the cost is almost as much as the dies from Hornady. Hornady does make one but it will not work in the RCBS dies I have. Going to have to buy the Hornady dies and order the seater stem to get what I need or just give up on the idea of 68 gn BTHP bullets for the AR. Suppose I could buy some factory loads, but what fun would that be.

I'm also going to check out the competition dies you mentioned.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

If your dies are in good shape I've seen them go for $30 + shipped.


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## glenway (Mar 27, 2011)

Isn't there another powder that may work with those long bullets instead of going with the extruded powder?


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## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

I checked all the powders listed in Hornadys manual for that bullet to try a spherical powder. And then I got a break down of the powders as far as whether they are extruded or spherical and there are no spherical powders that are listed around my area that I can find. Sucks to be me I guess.


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## JTKillough (May 4, 2010)

Something doesn't jive. I can't see all the loads for that powder, in the manual, being compressed loads. Maybe the max load, but not the starting load. Take a look in the case after you dump your load. Then dump the starting load and see what the difference is. Could your scale be off? I would exhaust all options before buying more dies. I checked the Sierra Manual and they list their 69 grain bullet, with the same powder (IMR 4895) starting at 22.9 grains and a max charge of 24.5 and the COAL at 2.260. What bullet had you been using prior to this? Did you re-set your die? Were you climping? There are a lot of questions that need answers.


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## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

JT, I didn't think the loads listed in Hornady's manual would all be compressed loads either but that is what the service rep at Hornady told me when using the IMR4895 powder. I haven't dumped the loads yet to compare them. I will have to do that and see what I can. As far as my scale being off, anything is possible. I am using an RCBS beam type scale, the 505 and I zero it before every loading session. If the scale gets bumped or moved on the bench, I re-zero it again (kind of anal about that, want them all to be the exact same). I don't have any known weights to check the scale though. As far as the dies go, I bought the OAL gauge, modified cases, and the comparator gauges to measure the chamber on my AR. I then reset my die, using an empty case and the bullet (68 gn BTHP) to give me a jump of .010 to start with and then I loaded one at 24 gr and had bullet crush problem. I then rechecked my measurements of the chamber and the die settings and all the measurements were the same so I had the seater stem set correctly to give me .010 jump. Then I decided to try the lighter loads and had the same crush on the bullet but not as severe due to less powder in the case. Even the 22 gn had slight bullet deformation from the seater stem. This is the standard seater stem that comes with the dies from RCBS. According to the Hornady rep I need to use the Amax seater stem because the ogive profile is different and I was point loading the bullets with the stem I am using. I had previously loaded only 60 gn soft point bullets for my AR with a slight taper crimp. I didn't reset the crimp height as the cases are all trimmed every time I reload them so that shouldn't have changed. I was talking to one of the guys at work about this (he reloads 1000's of cartridges in 6 months) and he said to use a ball powder and the problem would go away. Another guy at work who reloads said to call RCBS and they will make a seater stem to fit the bullets I wanted to use. Just have to send them 4 or 5 of them and wait for them to make one, his custom stem took 3 weeks and $15 which is a lot cheaper than buying new dies. I looked at some competition dies this weekend at the local gun show and my pocket book cried. So I am going to call RCBS on Monday and see what they can do for me.


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## glenway (Mar 27, 2011)

Again: In reading my older Hornady manual, Winchester 748 powder is listed as a good choice for accuracy throughout bullet weight ranges (although my manual doesn't list the heavier bullet you have chosen). And, even though the powder weights are relatively the same for W 748 and IMR 4895, the Winchester is a ball powder and will take up much less space in the case and may therefore put an end to this nightmare.


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## fr3db3ar (Aug 6, 2011)

I'm not a long time reloaded but I'm having trouble grasping how your load can be so compressed that you can deform a bullet. I'm running 25.5 gr of varget and compress slightly to reach mag length. I can't imagine how hard you have to press to deform.

Sent from somewhere in the time space continuum


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## prairiewolf (Feb 19, 2012)

I am just like Fred, I reload compressed loads for my .308. Powder is level with top of case !! and I feel no pressure when seating a bullet. I think I would check the crimp and seating . In other words, load a bullet without any crimp at all. Back seating off and start from scratch , another thought the top of your A-max bullets may be thinner ( weak) than they are suppose to, but I doubt it.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

I'll agree with backing off the seater die and screwing the stem down. The die itself serves no purpose but to crimp the case and hold the seater stem.


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## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

Thats exactly what I am going to try but with different powder this time. The coworker that reloads a lot of .223 for his AR is going to bring me some ball powder that he uses for the same bullet as I am trying to load. He also said to start over with the die settings even though the case length didn't change from the last bullets I loaded. (He is using the same dies I have with no problems) He also told me to load for magazine length and don't worry about the jump. Maybe I am missing something here but I have read and been told by an old gunsmith that if you load too long and the bullet is shoved into the riffling your pressures will go up dramatically and could be very dangerous.


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## fr3db3ar (Aug 6, 2011)

IMO if you load to mag length in an AR you'll never come close to to touching the lands. Hopefully starting from scratch will resolve your issue.

Sent from somewhere in the time space continuum


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

I have found that what Fr3d said is true. I know that some shooters single load(through the ejection port) their ARs to be able to use the heavier bullets. I have not tried it myself.


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## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

By mag length do you mean COL of 2.250 as per the Hornady manual? The reason I ask is because when I used the OAL gauge and measured with the comparator gauge the reading I got in my AR was 2.820 to touch the bullet to the lands. When i put the bullet in an empty case and set my die to seat the bullet to 2.810 for a .010 jump the COL is about 2.220 (varies a few thousands due to the bullet not being the exact same length).

I got the BL-C2 powder from the coworker and put 24.7 gn of it in an empty case and I could see the level of the powder and knew right away that the BL-C2 powder was going to work much better. I put the bullet in and seated it there was no sign of deformation to the bullet at all. I measured the bullet with the comparator gauge and it is 2.810 for the .010 jump. I then loaded 9 more and will have to take them out to the range to see how they shoot and fine tune the load for my AR. What a difference between the stick powder and the ball powder.

Lesson learned, Don't use IMR4895 for the 68 gn BTHP Hornady bullets in a .223 case. It just doesn't fit without special a special seater stem to compress the load with out deforming the bullet.


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## fr3db3ar (Aug 6, 2011)

Glas you seem to have worked it out. By mag length I meant what will fit and reliably feed out if an AR mag. Mine are within mm of dragging the front of my mags. I don't remember the COAL.

Sent from somewhere in the time space continuum


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## glenway (Mar 27, 2011)

I wondered all along why you were stuck on the IMR 4895 without ever having been able to try it. A very smart option you have chosen, DW. With your new measuring tools and eye for detail, I'd guess the new recipe will work fine. Sure will be interesting for all of us to find out.


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## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

I picked the IMR4895 because it was listed for loads for other rifles I had. Just trying to keep the amount of different powders down to a minimum. I was also hoping to get out to the range today to try out the loads I made up last night but I had to wait around for the rural water people and the plumber to show up today to hook up my rural water. They thought they would be here at 10:30 this morning but alas they didn't show up until 1:30 this afternoon. By the time everything was said and done it was too late to go to the range. Hopefully I can get there soon and let you guys know how the new bullet/loads work.

I would like to THANK EVERYONE for their help on this problem I created for myself. Thats what I like about this site, a great bunch of guys here.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Lol... Them water guys used to work for the cable company. Kramer had it right.


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## prairiewolf (Feb 19, 2012)

I understand trying to load several rifles with a standard powder, especially nowadays !!


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## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

youngdon said:


> Lol... Them water guys used to work for the cable company. Kramer had it right.


You got that right.


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## Antlerz22 (Apr 18, 2011)

glenway said:


> Trying to squeeze the most accuracy from your AR is sensible but nowhere have I read if you are using a bullet comparator with your new measuring tools.
> 
> *Bullets themselves can vary in length by up to .015". If you want a reliable reference point, it can only be found at the bullet's ogive - not its tip! Comparators resolve this issue and permit measuring length from the bullet's ogive - not the tip.*
> 
> ...


Learned something new, don't have a comparator, my next tool! Thx Glen, was using my calipers and oal as standard. I can see/understand where ogive is ACTUAL point of concern.


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## noylj (Nov 12, 2012)

>I doubt if anyone would want to go through all this, and since you are already at the maximum length, the only adjustments in overall cartridge length would be to make them shorter, which would make the bullet crushing issue worse.

I'm confused. You trim the case at the mouth. That has no effect on the COL or powder capacity. Unless you are pushing the shoulder back quite a bit, why would powder capacity change?


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

He means that since he is loading to maximum length now his only choice is to seat the bullet deeper( not cut the case shorter) which would make the problem worse.


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## noylj (Nov 12, 2012)

These points may have been covered several times already, but:

Compressed loads, particularly for stick powders, are not a problem and have been used for decades.

If you want. do what folks have done for about 300 years--use a long drop tube to increase the packing density of the powder in the case and you will save compressing the powder. Or, stop the hand wringing and go to a higher bulk density ball powder.

Again, always check the seating stem fit before loading new bullets and get a new seating stem as needed. Custom seating stems aren't that expensive and if you are into competition are a damn cheap means to better and straighter seating.


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