# Eastern Coyote?



## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

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*Do you think there are meaningful differences between coyote in the east vs. west*

Yupp3472.34%Nope612.77%Don't know48.51%Don't care36.38%


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## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

In another thread this subject started to come up. Instead of just another thread I thought it might be fun to vote.... then explain your answer....

Talk tactics... talk critters... I think it is all interesting....


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## bnkr244 (Dec 29, 2011)

Yes I do. I have done a lot of reading over the last few years about coyotes. It was just mentioned in another thread too, it's proven there are some genetic differences in them. Add to that the different terrain in the majority of the east compared to west. most places I hunt are surrounded by at least 3 sides of heavy cover. Very easy for a coyote to be watching you without even being able to see them. I know this can be true anywhere but it's almost always true where I am.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Are you just talking genetics ?

I think we have true (for lack of a better term) coyotes out west, as we established in the last thread easterns have wolf DNA.

Eastern coyotes probably have more human contact eat more often and have a smaller territory. Northern coyotes are bound by one of the basic laws of the animal kingdom as to their size compared to our more southern habitat (the farther north an animal of any given species lives the bigger it will be, this has to do with body mass and surviving the harsher winters)((look at whitetails in Canada compared to whitetails in Georgia))


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## SHampton (Apr 20, 2012)

Why are there fewer coyotes in the east?


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## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

SHampton said:


> Why are there fewer coyotes in the east?


I wonder the same thing..... My best answer is not as much room for them....


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## Spearodafish (Nov 11, 2012)

Maybe it's just so dense they are able to stay out of view better?


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## Paul-e (Sep 16, 2012)

Yup! Location, location, location. I believe that to be the greatest difference ! (aint never heard of anyone killin a big eastern yote in TX!)


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## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

Are there really less? According to SUNY ESF (a credited university here) NY has 20,000-30,000 coyote. At roughly 54,000 square miles density numbers are .37 per square mile on the low end and .56 on the high. Anyone have numbers for their state?


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## SHampton (Apr 20, 2012)

I can't remember what I heard we had.


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## bones44 (Jan 7, 2011)

Coyotes are fairly new to many territories in the east. Whe I was a kid in the 70's coyotes were unheard of in the southern lower half of Michigan. You had to travel north to even have the prospect of seeing one. I saw more coyotes than deer when I was a kid. Lots of them shot during deer firearm and taken to the buckpoles. I think in only the past 15 years or so have they become so populated where I'm at now. Densities may seem lower but that may only be a perception. I'm not the guy who can kill tons of em every year cause I'm still learning but I'm going with less population route...LOL :wink:


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## norsemaninbfe (Dec 18, 2011)

In SE Virginia they are getting more popluated. I have 25 acres and have not seen or caught one on the trail cam yet but I hear them every evening and some mornings. My property is a planted pine forest that was thinned last year wich could be why I am not seeing them, not enough cover? They seem to be hangin down along the creek and swamp where it is pretty think. As soon as deer season is over in January I plan to do some Yote hunting.


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## catcapper (Feb 11, 2010)

:smiley-eatin-popcorn:

awprint:


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## fr3db3ar (Aug 6, 2011)

SHampton said:


> Why are there fewer coyotes in the east?


Because we kill them all 

Well, somebody does......not me


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## prairiewolf (Feb 19, 2012)

Wow Rick, NY has 20,000 to 30,000 coyotes. I just looked up coyotes in our regs and it says there are 30,000 to 40,000 coyotes KILLED every year for the past 10 yrs here in Az.(but it had a date of 2009)and reported this was done with around 13,000 hunters, thats 1.5 to 3 coyotes per hunter a year. I cant find how many we are suppose to have but will keep checking.


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## azpredatorhunter (Jul 24, 2012)

bones44 said:


> Coyotes are fairly new to many territories in the east. Whe I was a kid in the 70's coyotes were unheard of in the southern lower half of Michigan. You had to travel north to even have the prospect of seeing one. I saw more coyotes than deer when I was a kid. Lots of them shot during deer firearm and taken to the buckpoles. I think in only the past 15 years or so have they become so populated where I'm at now. Densities may seem lower but that may only be a perception. I'm not the guy who can kill tons of em every year cause I'm still learning but I'm going with less population route...LOL :wink:


+1 on what Don said. Bones44 is right, when I was a kid in the 1970's I never seen a Coyote in Northern Illinois, my father had been trapping for 30+ years by 1970 and never trapped one, I started trapping in the 1970's and the first time I seen one wasn't untill the 1990's, they were not around, untill then. Now they are in down town Chicago. Coyote are like the Red Fox, they are all over the place, you just don't see them, unless you are trapping...


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## SHampton (Apr 20, 2012)

I think there are around 1,000 coyotes in the state I live in.


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## fr3db3ar (Aug 6, 2011)

SHampton said:


> I think there are around 1,000 coyotes in the state I live in.


And you are steadily decreasing that number.


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## Tracker401 (May 4, 2012)

I suspect coyotes are just as dense here in the east (where they are well established) as in the west. I think it's so darn thick in much of the habitat we just don't see them. See them on trail cams, sign in the roads etc, but laying eyes on one is not so easy. Keep in mind, I suspect lots more than I can prove!!

Tracker401


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## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

Coyote have been in NY since the 20's. There population really grew in the 70's.... (the popularity of deer hunting exploded then too)

Indeed the population seems small.... The numbers are estimates from a few years ago (2006)... I would think it is safe to say the population is at least at the high estimate... Funny thing I am finding is that most the farmers around me.... see less coyote now than they did 5 years ago..... More fox though..... (I was out talking to them today)

Norse... Those creek bottoms normally have brush around them which means food and water... The cover is nice for them too.... That is probably why do do not see them in your pines often... they have a better place to hang out. Pines can be good though... Because of the shallow roots they blow down easy. Those blow downs are often a good place to find a bed or a den. The thick canopy offers them better protection from the weather too.... Also shade in the summer... I like to hunt near pines as long as they have not been thinned artificially...


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## pantherarms99 (Nov 2, 2011)

u guys are right about coyotes not beign in the east for that long, they say they have plent of room to grow even bigger numbers


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## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

I believe they are on the rise... logic would have me believe so.


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## bones44 (Jan 7, 2011)

I bet their all hanging out at the deer crossing signs......


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## Paul-e (Sep 16, 2012)

Paul-e said:


> Yup! Location, location, location. I believe that to be the greatest difference !


I thought the question was about the difference 'tween eastern and western yotes, not about population densities. I'm sticking with my first answer, biggest difference...'bout 1,500 - 2,000 miles! :smile:


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## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

Paul-e said:


> I thought the question was about the difference 'tween eastern and western yotes, not about population densities. I'm sticking with my first answer, biggest difference...'bout 1,500 - 2,000 miles! :smile:


lol


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## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

Indeed the question was about differences.... which undoubtedly there is..... but the real question was are they meaningful (pertaining to a hunter)?


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## Paul-e (Sep 16, 2012)

Still sticking to my first answer, YUP! Meaningful pertaining to the hunter, absolutely. Don't spend the money on a trip to AZ if yer looking for a big eastern! Other than that I'm sure there may be hundreds of other differences, I just aint bright enough to figure them out!


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## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

lol I think your answer is probably the best one...


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## Paul-e (Sep 16, 2012)

It was an awesome question, I've never seen in depth scientific research to show differences but there has to be some out there. Behavior, genetics, physical differences. If I were trying for a degree and had to do a major research project, I think I know what it could be about. Sorry about my inability to see past the obvious.


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## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

I have a few links tucked away somewhere if you are interested.


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## bones44 (Jan 7, 2011)

All of the articles I've read so far have shown in DNA studies that many of the eastern coyotes do have wolf genes albeit a small percentage. Pretty interesting stuff for sure. Don't know if it's watered down from eons ago or how it happened but it gets my interest just to learn more about my biggest adversary ! :teeth:


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## bones44 (Jan 7, 2011)

Very cool info to have Geoff. Thanks for posting. Haven't seen any black raccoons yet but would love to have one mounted. They're pretty cool looking. Good luck bud !


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## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

The all black raccoon are interesting. Let us know what you find out please. My guess would be a genetic trait passed down. Like black squirrels.

Jeff do you have some links on the coyote stuff you are reading? Book names? I would like to read up some more.


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## fr3db3ar (Aug 6, 2011)

If you were THAT special, they would have named you Ed.


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## prairiewolf (Feb 19, 2012)

Hey I am called Special Ed cause I have trouble understanding stuff ! But really I cant post what I am really called it will get bleaped !!


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## Rikitycrikit (Nov 12, 2012)

I live in rural west tn. And we farm about 3000 acres of corn/soybeans. Anyway we see coyotes constantly in our tractors and hear them all night long and into the early morning. Also, they seem to be getting increasingly aggressive here they aren't scared to follow our combine and tractors around a field waiting for mice and rabbits and such to run off into the woods. And on top of that I've been hearing a lot of stories about coyotes charging some deer hunters and stealing kills this year. I don't know if anyone else hears similar stories, but this seems odd to me as we've never had them follow us or heard stories of them charging deer hunters.


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## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

I have seen them follow machines... Never heard of them messing with a deer hunter though...

Sorry about the miss spell Geoff...


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## Ledge (Nov 13, 2012)

I know several people that speak of the yotes following the tractors when they are cutting hay and grabbing mice, moles, and voles. As far as the whole stealing a deer hunters kill goes, I know a couple guys that have had dogs come in on a stand right after taking a deer, but those yotes didn't last real long.


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## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

Ricky, Ricke, Ricki, Rikki, Rich, Richard, Dick, Dicky, Dickie, Dicke, Richie, Richy..... lol I have a lot


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## Rikitycrikit (Nov 12, 2012)

The only reason I give any merit to those stories is because they came from our local game warden, and I've noticed them getting more aggressive around the house with our dogs at night....only thing that sucks we can't shoot at night unless we want local le all over us


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## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

If it came down to my dog or a visit from the fuzz.... I would pull the trigger


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## Ledge (Nov 13, 2012)

Rikitycrikit said:


> The only reason I give any merit to those stories is because they came from our local game warden, and I've noticed them getting more aggressive around the house with our dogs at night....only thing that sucks we can't shoot at night unless we want local le all over us


Even if they are a threat to pets or livestock? I drill raccoons on a pretty regular basis at night harrassing my chickens and haven't had a problem...yet.


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## Rikitycrikit (Nov 12, 2012)

If we lived further outside of city limits it wouldn't be an issue at all but were only about a mile out. Well we have a big lab and bigger huskie mix and I think they bully the yotes around down here more often than not, lol. If I really thought my dogs were in danger I'd be out spotlighting and drilling those yotes without a care it its just not worth the hassle as of yet, considering I can them called in around here during daylight hours.


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## bones44 (Jan 7, 2011)

If they're attacking livestock or pets they can be shot year round here. No mercy !


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## Rikitycrikit (Nov 12, 2012)

Our season is year round with no bag limit, all you have to have is a small game license....and you can shoot 30 min before official sunrise to 30 after official sunset


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## Rikitycrikit (Nov 12, 2012)

Lucky the only way we can night hunt here is with written permission from a game warden, but we can use any firearm all year.


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## HowlinRed (Feb 3, 2011)

Any way you want, any time you want, all year long. But not on Sunday


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## NattyB1 (Jan 21, 2012)

I voted "No" with note of the the qualifier: "meaningful". I'm not going to question the science that some Eastern yotes have wolf gene in them. (Course comprehensive study would have to be done on all the other yodel dogs around the country to find they don't have some of it to.) Regardless, this is like saying is there a meaningful difference between NJ Pine Barren bucks, PA Farm bucks, Iowa bucks and Alberta bucks. Sure I can tell a TX buck if I can see the whole body of the deer, but they really aren't meaningful differences. Yes some yotes are a little bigger, just like deer. Area of Country, particular habitiat and hunting pressure affects their growth, reproduction and "street smarts", but I'd have a hard time believing big East's have genetically more scrupples than Westerners. Oh, but they are so much harder to hunt back East. Yea, you can't see but 80 yards in our woods. They wind you at 120. The East has much more hunting pressure, so they can get edumacated easier. There certainly are minor variations, but with all the differences compared you still have a yote, a challenging hunt and a lot of fun.


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## bnkr244 (Dec 29, 2011)

I can say they can be pretty aggressive towards dogs. I have been on the phone with my dad and heard them in the backround on the farm giving warning barks at his dogs at night. They actually have come in to around 100 yards. Of course its when he doesnt have the gun or a light. There is a guy that owns 3 big cain corso dogs not far from our farm. Last winter they brought home 3 coyotes... The dogs just go run the farm land on their own. Could have even been wounded or dead coyotes to begin with. These dogs must be 125lbs, the male easily over 150. So I would not say bigger breeds are not at a lot of danger when it comes to coyotes. At least not in numbers.


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## OneDown38 (Dec 10, 2012)

I don't have a ton of input, but just what I've observed, heard and read, food sources in the east are much more abundant thus making it more difficult to call in yotes to distress calls. At least where I'm at on the map.


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## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

OneDown I think that is the biggest contributor to the differences we see. More food and harder winter makes bigger coyote. More food and water keeps them from having to search as hard.

I do not feel there is any "meaningful" difference. My vote is for no but, I do think our tactics are different because of terrain, food, and water. If anyone was wondering.


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## HunterGatherer (Dec 18, 2012)

Paul-e said:


> Yup! Location, location, location. I believe that to be the greatest difference ! (aint never heard of anyone killin a big eastern yote in TX!)


Heres a 40-50 lb coyote I took four weeks ago east of Livingston, west of Woodville.





  








East Texas Coyote




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HunterGatherer


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Dec 18, 2012


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east texas coyote




This is an East Texas coyote I shot while on a deer stand in November. I'm having him pedestal...


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## NattyB1 (Jan 21, 2012)

Way to go HG. I think you shot a Nor-Easter vacationing in the South. Just read a good, but breif article in Predator Nation about this topic (Now I'm an expert!). Anyway it said, for the Easterns there was a Northern strain (W/Wolf Genes) that moved South from Canada, then a Western Strain that moved East from the Mid-West. These strains met in Pa/NY. Now there is a Canis Soupus of the Eastern Coyote. I did see one coyote back in 96 or 97 on a Maine Bear bait. That coyote stood about 32" at the shoulder. (I saw it very clearly and could's believe how tall and lanky that yote was. It never gave me a clear shot with my bow.) Anyway...biggest yote I've ever seen... Still yotes is yotes.


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## HunterGatherer (Dec 18, 2012)

Natty, I'm hypothesizing here. And, maybe you can confirm what I'm about to say, with your expertise, haha!... The red wolf that was bred in captivity and released to the the Carolinas was from captured stock from Southeast Texas and Northwest Louisiana. I read that they trapped about 400 animals and from those they determined that 17 of them were authentic red wolves. That was back in the 70s. I forget when they were released in Carolina. But, to make a long story short, recent DNA testing has shown that the "red wolves" that were released actually have a coyote DNA component to them. So, where am I going with this? The animal I shot was over 40 lbs and 40 is generall considered the high side of coyote and I shot him in East Texas, close to the area where the "red wolf" was captured back in the 70s. So, I have speculated that he has some red wolf in him. I contacted biologists in Canada and Los Angeles and I'm arranging to send samples to them for DNA testing. The science of DNA testing has advanced way beyond where it was back in the 70s and I'm hoping they can give me some info on a percentage basis of what this coyote is. I'm thinking he is a hybrid, which only means that he has DNA in him indicating coyote and wolf. They can tell me how much.

I shot a coyote up in Vermont back in the 80s and he was a big one, a good 40 lber, I would say. At that time, they had been making their presence known for some years and that was the first one I had seen. He was a beautiful gold color. I wish I had saved his pelt. I was poor back then and didn't have the means to save it. Anyways, since then I have been fascinated regarding the advancement of the eastern coyote.


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## NattyB1 (Jan 21, 2012)

As far as expertise goes, you'll get nothing but ******* logic from me. However, I think it's great you're taking the extra step and having it sent away for testing. We would very much be interested in the results. (If it does come back postive you can put all your great white North wolf hunt adventure plans away, save the money and keep hunting local. After all you can say, "Yea, killed me a wolf in TX. Why would I go to Alberta?") I do know there is a separate species of Red Wolf in Algonquin Park (Canada). Two Summers ago, my buddy canoed next to one as it swam accross a lake. He said it looked just like a lanky coyote, but obviously larger. My buddy lived in IA for 10 years and snared and shot coyotes. He knows enough to make a comparision. Anyway, I've read the Wolf DNA in the Easterns is from that Red Wolf species. Best of luck with the results. Please report the findings.


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## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

Now you all see why I am fascinated with the topic  Here in NY, I find the bigger (40lb or more) coyote often have smaller ears. The smaller (less than 40lb) coyote seem to have longer more pointed ears. Just my general observation but, it makes sense as gray wolfs, which our coyote share genetics, have smaller ears than coyote. I am hypothesizing this is a good indication the larger coyote have more wolf than the smaller coyote. Still being more coyote than wolf though....


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## Paul-e (Sep 16, 2012)

HunterGatherer I wish I could say that was the first time I was proved wrong! (Trying to remember a time I was proved right.....nope, I got nuthin!)

Dirty, this has turned into a cool thread. Very interesting stuff from you guys that have done some homework. (homework, something else I dont have a good track record with!)


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## bones44 (Jan 7, 2011)

LOL Paul. I have the same track record.... :teeth: You're right this is pretty fascinating. Huntergatherer nice coyote BTW !!!


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## number9 (Jan 16, 2013)

Acording to the DNR here in Ga a group hunters brought the coyotes here from out west when foxes became almost extinct from hunting them. The people that brought them here did so to run their dogs and the population exploded (another example why man ought to leave things alone but we still dont) In the seventies their were still very few now do to breeding with feral dogs and some domestic we are getting over run with them.


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## tdzimmermanjr (Feb 4, 2013)

fr3db3ar said:


> And you are steadily decreasing that number.


That's pretty funny right there :hunter4:


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## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

There is going to be a documentary some might find interesting on CBC tonight. I don't get the channel but am hoping they might put it on the net..... I will see what I can find....

Here is the tease

http://www.cbc.ca/player/Shows/Shows/The+Nature+of+Things/Previews/ID/2330967464/


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## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

A cool vid is just came across. Waiting on appointments....... In the video he talks about popoulation densities and distances traveled. To me this means a lot for hunting here.






O yeah the host is a goof ball but what are ya gonna do. Some times you gotta wade through the crap to get the goods. There is a part 2 but its a waste of time..... Might be good for a laugh... Here is the link but consider yourself warned.... You won't get the time back lol.


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## Grey Dog (Jan 31, 2010)

If you google Meet the Coywolf you can view the Nature Channels version of the Eastern Coyote. It has some interesting footage.


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## ReidRH (Feb 1, 2010)

In MS we have Way too many, another thing down here there are so many places for the coyotes to hide you rarely see one.

We hear them much more than we See them.

One reason Easterns get larger is There is also Plenty of Game to feed them here so they get Larger and their numbers are increasing at a pretty good pace, MS has a Kill on site with no weapon restrictions.

The Only problem with killing them out is if you kill the yotes out the HOGS REALLY Take over an area! I have a friend that Killed 50 or 60 yotes one year on his property but the next year the Hogs just about ruined his place!

I will kill either on my property given the chance!


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