# Yardage to a clean kill . . .



## Cliffy (Mar 7, 2010)

Yardage to a clean kill regards velocity plus bullet weight to create striking force at the target. Muzzle velocity accounts for nothing more than if the prey is sitting at one's muzzle (the perfect shot), yet this seldom happens. Muzzle velocity does indicate the relative power throughout the viable range of effectiveness. Gravity drop and varible winds create the major varibles causing MISSES. To say gravity drop is a constant non-variable does not negate its detrimental affect at 400 yards. This is a "constant problem" always present. This factor alone can cause accuracy havoc. Windage presents a new "non-constant" problem, since wind is generally present to some degree. Wind abuse at the target is often different than wind conditions at the muzzle. How perplexing is that? How fun is fixing that problem? Adding weight to the bullet automagically assists with windage deviations, yet cuts velocity potential toward extreme long-range accuracy by creating extra gravitational drop. Dilemma occurs while attempting to balance this ACT. The "perfect bullet" regarding .223 Remington application has to be the Speer BearClaw 55 grain Trophy-Bonded bullet, yet the 55 grain Speer T-N-T seems stronger regarding varmint forclosure, still the 60 grain Nosler Partition bullet seems the end-all for deer persuit. .22 Centerfire bullets cover 34 to 64 grain of hunting application, with even heavier paper target prowess, but here we seem most concerned with hunting applications. Currently, 55 grain BULLETS seem best for coyotes and 60 grain Nosler Partition bullets seem best for deer hunting. A .223 Remington seems a suitable caliber for 2 to 600 pound varmints and "medium game" animals. Color me wrong if I don't SEEM to understand .22 Centerfire prowess with the right bullet selection. At 400 yards, a .22 centerfire .55 grain bullet should take no more that .48 seconds to reach out and touch something, or something is wrong within in the handload. Cliffy


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## LilBill (Mar 12, 2010)

reading that made me think too much ,but good post.


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## Cliffy (Mar 7, 2010)

Thinking is Good, Aiming is more fun. Cliffy


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## mxriderkev (Jun 28, 2010)

im with you lilbill , although educational its a lot to think about


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## JTKillough (May 4, 2010)

All I know, or care to think about right now is that at 7pm yesterday evening, I hammered a coyote square in the chest from 275 yards with a 20 caliber, 40 grain V-Max. He flipped over backwards and was dead before he hit the ground. Not a lot of muzzle energy there. Just bullet placement. Theres only one way to get it, shoot more.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Which .20 cal. are you shooting, JT?


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## JTKillough (May 4, 2010)

Savage Rifle in 204 Ruger


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Sweet, do you reload for it ? If so what load do you prefer ?


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## Cliffy (Mar 7, 2010)

Coyotes are non-discrimate lovers, hence inter-breeding with Timber Wolves and Feral Dogs may apply as mutants. DNA testing proves interbreeding is occurring. "Wolyotes" as I call them are occurring. Gray Wolves as re-introduced into the wilds are not pure wolves, but mixed with Alaskan Malamutes and other large dogs. Malamutes are too vicious and unpredictable for "PET" status. Alaskan Huskies are the sweetest of disposition, but once "mixed" into wolf status, what can be expected? Gray Wolves are are true mistake as a re-introduced predator into the Lower Forty-Eight. It took our forefathers many years to erraticate these ungulate predators. Did anyone ever STOP to think that these beasties won't stop with eating all our deer and start eating slow-moving humans? Cliffy. If too late to correct our stupidity, maybe we can hunt Hybrid Wolves into extinction, as our forefathers intended back within black-powder days.


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## hassell (Feb 9, 2010)

Cliffy said:


> Coyotes are non-discrimate lovers, hence inter-breeding with Timber Wolves and Feral Dogs may apply as mutants. DNA testing proves interbreeding is occurring. "Wolyotes" as I call them are occurring. Gray Wolves as re-introduced into the wilds are not pure wolves, but mixed with Alaskan Malamutes and other large dogs. Malamutes are too vicious and unpredictable for "PET" status. Alaskan Huskies are the sweetest of disposition, but once "mixed" into wolf status, what can be expected? Gray Wolves are are true mistake as a re-introduced predator into the Lower Forty-Eight. It took our forefathers many years to erraticate these ungulate predators. Did anyone ever STOP to think that these beasties won't stop with eating all our deer and start eating slow-moving humans? Cliffy. If too late to correct our stupidity, maybe we can hunt Hybrid Wolves into extinction, as our forefathers intended back within black-powder days.


 Any wolves and wolf area's that I know of, they may eat any pet dog they encounter which is normally in the winter under extreme snow depths and have to get close to homes to be able to get them but have never heard or known of them to breed with their dinner, coyotes-yes, some people raise these wolf dogs to sell and claim that they are a wolf species, lucky if they have 30% genetics in them.


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## JTKillough (May 4, 2010)

Young, I have been using 26.3 grains of Varget in Remington brass. A Winchester WSR primer and a 40 grain Hornady V-Max. Getting a .354 inch group at 100 yards. Not speedy, but deadly.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Wow, Nice group JT, I have heard good things from several people about varget, I guess I'm going to have to try it. I'm shooting right at .5 with ww748 but if I can improve on that I'll certainly try it. Thanks for the recipe.


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## GritGuy (Jan 31, 2010)

Never worry about such things, load up what I want to shoot, practice with it till I feel comfortable using it, then kill things with it.

Save me breath for them conversations when I'm a sleep LOL


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## illinipredator (Jul 17, 2010)

JTKillough said:


> Savage Rifle in 204 Ruger


By far the best rifle on the market for long shots to 250 yds. We shoot a lot east of the Mississippi near St. Louis and have enjoyed the range of the 204


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## JTKillough (May 4, 2010)

I have taken coyotes at a longer range (upwards of 350), but beyond that there really isn't much knockdown power. Placement is crucial. Youngdon, I failed to mention that I moly coat my bullets, by doing so I had to drop the powder down from 27.5 to 26.3 grains. The 27.5 grain load was shooting .550 inches at 100 yards. I was trying to develop a load for plinking using a 32 grain V-Max, thought I'd try the 40 with moly and after some tweaking on the powder charge the rifle shot bug-hole. All the shots touching. That was the clincher for me.


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## Tommy (Jan 21, 2010)

very interesting. Do you have any information on 22 250? Advantages and disadvantages?


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

What sort of info are you looking for Tommy ? The advantage to a 22-250 is its flat trajectory and accompanied by it's high velocity it's kill range is quite extensive. Most 22-250's that i have had the pleasure to shoot are very accurate with fairly little recoil. I has proven to be easy to reload in my experience as well. The disadvantage would be that it is not available in the ar-15 platform. Ammo when compared to a .223 is quit a bit more expensive if you do not reload, and the avaialbility may not be as great as the .223. As far as a pure varmint and predator round I'm not sure that you could call anything about the 22-250 a disadvantage. I'm sure that others here may see things differently than I do or may have something to add.


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## Tommy (Jan 21, 2010)

Three things,

A. I love my 250, but as you mentioned the availability isn't as I had hoped. I don't know very much about reloading and don't exactly want to get into it...I have enough irons in the fire.

2. My effective range with it is roughly 300 yards, and less. I don't have the confinence to shoot further, as I really don't have a place that I feel good about shooting further. If I found a place and got proficient, should I try shots on dogs out there 400 yards? Meaning is the kinetic energy there to blast that dog that is hung up and doing the ol warning bark at me?


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## GritGuy (Jan 31, 2010)

I've shot my 250 for many years along with several other fur guns, up until last year when I won a 204 it was my main gun for fur harvesting, It's since been dethroned LOL

However the 250 can and will knock the stuffing out of a dog a 400 yds easily, the difficult part is getting your persoange to cooperate with the gun, you got to be rock steady and know the gun period, no debate, you have no room for error at this distance.


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## Cliffy (Mar 7, 2010)

A .223 Remington and a .22/250 Remington are not worlds apart regarding coyote stopping-power. About 3200 fps versus 3600 fps regarding 55 grain Varmint fare. DEPENDING upon the individual shooter's ability, an estimate is 300 yards for the .223 and 400 yards for the .22/250. THEN there is a wild card regarding the .243 Winchester: 3600 fps with 65 grain fare. Bucking the wind is always an issue. These are not maximum ranges for any of these three, but every shooter must know his or her MAXIMUM range of ability. I feel comfortable at 300 yards with a .223 Remington. Beyond that enormously long range, I'll pass-up the shot. Even with my mighty .243, I feel my maximum come-into play at 400 yards. Several shooters can feel confident beyond my maximum range settings, but most weekend warriors should not even attempt my maximums. I practice long-range shooting at least twice-a-week firing thirty to sixty rounds per afternoon. This type of range practice welds one into one with his or her firearm. Cliffy


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## GritGuy (Jan 31, 2010)

Single most important tool in any callers arsenal any more is a reliable range finder, with out that tool making long shots like these is mostly peeing into the wind without extreme shooting practice for average shooters.

It's not a debate for me with what gun you use, but more how well you can estimate your range ability, I was so surprised at my estimation until I bought a range finder that I could not believe it.

And it's proven useful for many other debates in the field as well for many shooters who felt the rifle was the one letting them down.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Tommy said:


> Three things,
> 
> A. I love my 250, but as you mentioned the availability isn't as I had hoped. I don't know very much about reloading and don't exactly want to get into it...I have enough irons in the fire.
> 
> 2. My effective range with it is roughly 300 yards, and less. I don't have the confinence to shoot further, as I really don't have a place that I feel good about shooting further. If I found a place and got proficient, should I try shots on dogs out there 400 yards? Meaning is the kinetic energy there to blast that dog that is hung up and doing the ol warning bark at me?


 Yes you have plenty of gun for even a 500 yd shot, but as stated in the above post you have to be able to make the shot and that takes willtake as You mentioned.... Practice.


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## ebbs (Feb 7, 2010)

> 2. My effective range with it is roughly 300 yards, and less.


Tommy, I'll add to Don's thoughts and say that you are wise in your feelings on this. I feel like strong shooters and hunters know their limitations, and thus adjust their hunting style to fit their abilities. I like seeing guys be smart and hunt within their means.

That said, skill at longer distances comes from practicing at long ranges. I've got guns that will shoot 500+ yards, but I've never practiced beyond 440 and thus don't trust myself beyond that. Even predators deserve to be killed cleanly.


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## Tommy (Jan 21, 2010)

Dangit! Everyone missed the "three things" comment, I am one of those people that cant count.....


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## Cliffy (Mar 7, 2010)

Accuracy, power, and what else? Love this website because it's LOADED with savvy shooters, who tell it like it is. I spend more time at the range than actually hunting. Still my bullet to powder matches come from chronographic results, and to me those are priceless statistics. If I group three into an inch at 200 yards, I feel I've learned something special regarding a custom handload. Yet the main varible is the bullet's construction when actually hunting. Currently, Berger 55 grain Varmint bullets are the most accurate along with 55 grain Speer T-N-T hollowpoints, yet 60 grain Nosler Partition fare are the hardest hitting, most devestating bullets available to .22 Centerfire hunters. If I ever put down my .243 Winchester deer rifle, I'd reach automatically for my .223 Remington with handloaded Nosler Partitions for deer hunting. I wish the competition for 60 grain .224 caliber bullets would become intense, since 60 grain bullets are the MAXIMUM weight that 1 in 12" twist barrels can handle accurately. Cliffy


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## ebbs (Feb 7, 2010)

I like it, Cliffy. More time at the range than actually hunting.

I'll second that, but also not discount the need to PRACTICE in hunting SITUATIONS!

A few years back me, dad (tc4me), my brother-in-law and a buddy were planning an elk hunting trip in Western Colorado. The guide owner said we could expect shots in the 3rd rifle season north of Grand Junction to be anywhere from 100-400 yards. So that's what we practiced. We got our rifles sighted in, learned the arc of the bullet at the main ranges and then sought to hike all over his mostly open 200 acre farm practicing quick shots, surprise shots, offhand shots, prone shots, and seated shots. Then we practiced them again with sticks, and over, and over, and over. When the time came, 3 out of the 4 of us got our chances, and we made our shots count.

Practice doesn't make perfect, but it sure does make the real thing a bit more enjoyable.


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## On a call (Mar 3, 2010)

Wonderfull experience !

Glad it paid off for you guys Ebbs....that is the way to do it !

Nothing like making a long shot count, rather than guessing...did I hit my mark ??????


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## hassell (Feb 9, 2010)

The amount of times I've spent at a gun range I think you could count on one hand, we do have them here but you have to be a member etc, etc, just go out in the mtns. and shoot!!!!


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## Bigdrowdy1 (Jan 29, 2010)

Range fees are $10.00 a day here in Dallas with a 100 yd being max available. I go early as possible and leave when the range fills in. It makes me nervous with people around me and not knowing how they shoot or handle their guns. It is also hard to concentrate and hold aim when the CANNON next to you forces you to flinch and moves you from the percussion alone. That is why I hold Oklahoma dear to my heart. Go out the back door, range target and enjoy the day.


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## Cliffy (Mar 7, 2010)

I located a range in Southwestern Michigan with 100-200-300 yard practice. Costs me $40 a year. My last membership was at a local range (100 yard) and a $140 a year membership. I know of two others with a 200 yard maximum range almost locally. The cost to shoot is not quite as important to me as the distance-of-shot available. Driving distance: one at 9.5 miles, 14.0 miles, 17.0 miles, and 23.5 miles. My car gets 27 mpg, so gas isn't a problem to any of the afformentioned ranges. I expend about $35 in reloads per shooting session. Gas in my area is about $2.90 per gallon. Gas there and back of my current shooting range is about $3. I'm sure I could find more expensive hobbies, since I have a gambling casino fairly close by. For $500, I could go fishing for six hours on Lake Michigan, and even invite five guests. Cliffy


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## Bigdrowdy1 (Jan 29, 2010)

5 shots @ 100 yds. small tear drop hole. Priceless LOL Sorry Cliffy when reading this it reminded me of the commercial that airs down here.


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