# Ar grouping



## s_friz (Feb 5, 2014)

So I got my first ar. It's a windham weaponry src. I put a bushnell trophy xlt 4x12x40mm scope on it. I laser bore sighted it. That put me on paper. Now it's so inaccurate it's ridiculous. I'm shooting 8 inch groups at 100 yards. I have used cheap ammo match grade ammo. Still the same results. I am an experienced shooter. What's the deal??


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## glenway (Mar 27, 2011)

Take the scope off and use the iron sights - assuming they are in place - and shorten up the range and see if it's better. Go from there...


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## s_friz (Feb 5, 2014)

We'll it didn't come with iron sights. It was scope ready. I'm wanting to use it for coyote hunting.


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## Guest (Feb 6, 2014)

A barrel nut not tightened down to specs allowing the barrel to slightly move could cause this, but when you think of a seemingly small movement on the weapon, and how far off it will throw the round down range, it doesn't seem that far fetched. As said before, your optics might be the problem. Check how it is mounted and assure all screws are tight to specs.

And don't take this personally, but have a buddy shoot it too. We are all human, so there could be many variables there. You may be the culprit and not even know it.

Good luck.


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## sneakygroundbuzzard (Nov 1, 2012)

if youve never fired an AR styke rifle before they can be a bit differant to get used to shooting properly

i remember a guy either on here or a differant site that was having issues getting good groups from his to

untill he got some help from an experienced shooter of AR platfrom style weapons,a little help and he was shooting nice and tight

but definatly make sure everything is set up to spec first


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## fr3db3ar (Aug 6, 2011)

Agreed, first check and be sure all your scope mounting is tight. Have a friend shoot it to see if someone gets better or worse results. If they get the same results, try a proven scope just to be sure.


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## s_friz (Feb 5, 2014)

It's definitely not the scope, it more than likely is the fact I'm not use to it. I'm use to shooting heavier guns. The 2 stage trigger is also hard for me to get use to


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## Rediculous (Oct 16, 2013)

I agree with short204 on the barrel nut possibility. Also, what is the rifle twist rate and what ammo are you shooting through it. I'm going to assume it's 1-9 for now and your shooting 55 grain which is fine. If the scope is not tracking or wobbling. in my experience even wolf steel case ammo will hold 2 inch groups or less. And as you stated, maybe your mechanics are off. Try a gun vise to be sure. If your barrel is not free floated and you are bearing weight onto the fore end, it can cause deflections bc of barrel harmonics, I have seen this happen some. Also call the manufacturer and see if they test fire and what their quality control levels are, as in, do they allow only 1.5 moa rifles to leave the factory or not and have they had barrel fitting errors reported recently.


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## s_friz (Feb 5, 2014)

It's a 1-9 twist rate. I just bought a box of hornady match grade. 75gr bthp. It actually says on the box for 1:9 twist and faster. I hope it's not the barrel nut. Surely it is tightened to specs before leaving the manufacturer. I don't have a torque wrench either. The barrel isn't free floating. I'm really wanting to buy a 20" heavy varminter or hbar match grade barrel. I will put a free float handgaurd on regardless of what I do


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## Guest (Feb 7, 2014)

How can u be so sure it's not the scope? Not to knock your scope, but I have personally had problems with bushnell scopes.


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## Varmintnv (Aug 17, 2012)

Part of your problem is the 75gr ammo. 1-9 twist is a bit slow for 75gr boattails in a 16" barrel. If it were a 20"-24" barrel I would be worried if it didn't shoot the 75's. Drop to 55-65gr and I'll bet your groups improve. You really need a 1-8 or faster twist to spin the 75's properly. And I'll second the bad experience with the cheaper Bushnell scopes.

Life's too short not to hunt coyotes!!


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## Rediculous (Oct 16, 2013)

Varmintnv said:


> Part of your problem is the 75gr ammo. 1-9 twist is a bit slow for 75gr boattails in a 16" barrel. If it were a 20"-24" barrel I would be worried if it didn't shoot the 75's. Drop to 55-65gr and I'll bet your groups improve. You really need a 1-8 or faster twist to spin the 75's properly. And I'll second the bad experience with the cheaper Bushnell scopes. Life's too short not to hunt coyotes!!


+1 75 grains is not going to generate enough inertia with a 1-9 twist...And the "cheaper" bushnell scopes are plagued with quality control issues. I am a bushnell fanatic as far as the elite series goes but I know where their values are. I personally would not go with anything over 62 grain in a 1-9 twist, but if your going to a match barrel I would suggest 1-7


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## s_friz (Feb 5, 2014)

To eliminate the scope for being the problem I put it on my 22-250. I was shooting 1 inch groups at 100 yrds. Thanks for the info so far guys. I'm learning. Still pretty new to ar's and this forum.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Varmintnv said:


> Part of your problem is the 75gr ammo. 1-9 twist is a bit slow for 75gr boattails in a 16" barrel. If it were a 20"-24" barrel I would be worried if it didn't shoot the 75's. Drop to 55-65gr and I'll bet your groups improve. You really need a 1-8 or faster twist to spin the 75's properly. And I'll second the bad experience with the cheaper Bushnell scopes. Life's too short not to hunt coyotes!!


I agree that the 75gr bullet is to heavy for that twist barrel. Buying a box with lighter bullets will likely solve the issue.


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## Scotty D. (Feb 23, 2012)

An AR wrench is pretty inexpensive... If u have an AR, it's a good investment... :teeth:


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## sneakygroundbuzzard (Nov 1, 2012)

Scotty D. said:


> An AR wrench is pretty inexpensive... If u have an AR, it's a good investment... :teeth:


I've got two

One stays in my AR case and one on the bench


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## s_friz (Feb 5, 2014)

I have a armorers wrench. The barrel nut is nice and snug. Are there any suggestions on a new barrel? I would really like a varminter on this thing


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Be careful what you wish for. Most guys who buy the heavier barrels wish that they had stayed with a lighter one after they have to carry it for a bit.


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## s_friz (Feb 5, 2014)

I have no issue carrying a heavy gun.


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## Agney5 (Sep 28, 2013)

I'm a white oak fan, but their lead times can be long depending on what you're looking for.


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## sneakygroundbuzzard (Nov 1, 2012)

the only real advantage i see to heavy barrel is that they can take more heat

but lets face it how often when hunting are you going to be rapid firing your weapon

you get your first shot maybe a follow up shot and if your really lucky a third if youve missed both of the first two shots(if you can call that lucky lol)

any decent barrel should be able to handle the heat from three shots,after that what ever your shooting at is long gone

my dpms doesnt start loosing accuracy from heat untill i get about 7shots in on a rapid fire group,and its got a light barrel

and even then its not that much of a loss of accuracy.would still be acceptable for hunting purposes.but you notice it on paper


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## s_friz (Feb 5, 2014)

Does it have a free floating barrel?


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## Scotty D. (Feb 23, 2012)

s_friz said:


> I have a armorers wrench. The barrel nut is nice and snug. Are there any suggestions on a new barrel? I would really like a varminter on this thing


Black Rain Ordnance. That will be the barrel on my next AR build. 

Sent from my SCH-S738C using Tapatalk


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## OHIOOutdoors2 (May 1, 2013)

A little excited about that new barrel are ya Scotty D? Lol.


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## Guest (Feb 8, 2014)

I've shot AR's for along time. I seen all the gadgets you can put on them and I've shot just about every manufacturer of AR's and AR bbl's. You are gonna hear alot of guys pitch why one barrel is better than the rest. In all honesty, you pay for the name...not the bbl. I've shot Lilja, krieger, bartlein and shillen. Best barrel I ever had was a DPMS match....not because it's a match bbl...but because it was cheap and out performed any other barrel I ever had.

And Scotty.... check out this link before you waste your hard earned money on complete junk......black rain is the bastard child of the AR industry.....their quality is horrible...and it's not just on recievers and internals, their bbl's are crap too.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_12/606055_Black_Rain_Ordnance__Buyer_Beware_.html


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## Agney5 (Sep 28, 2013)

Short it's funny you say that, my gunsmithing instructor had built a lot of ARs for people. He's a real big precision rifle guy so he's not a big ar guy but knows how to do the work. His best upper he ever built accuracy wise was a green mountain barrel! And he has tried a little bit of everything like you but that green mountain was the best shooter he had. It's hard to imagine a $100 barrel out shooting a $400 bartlien.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk


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## Scotty D. (Feb 23, 2012)

Short204.. My mistake-- barrel is from Black Hole Weaponry... BRO dealer sells them...

Don't care much for BRO rifles, but I've read many good reviews on BHW barrels w/ 3 & 5 land polygonal rifling...All I want is the barrel for my build... Just about everything else will be RRA :teeth:


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## Rediculous (Oct 16, 2013)

I think the real issue with buying a custom barrel is the chance your taking. I have seen on bolt and ar rifles, many top name brands be failures and many so called "crap" barrels be excellent. The price for big name barrels is more about their percentages of quality. So a bartlein barrel for instance. Bartlein may only put out 1 bad barrel per 100,000, but if you happen to buy the bad one....not a good day. And with say an ER Shaw barrel for much less $$$ they may churn out a bad barrel every 5,000 barrels so the chance is increased with them. Most reputable manufacturers will stand behind their product and fix it.Thats the real catch, if they will be good in customer service and deliver on their promises, then I will pay for that service more happily than a "great" barrel company who sold me junk and won't even reply.


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## Scotty D. (Feb 23, 2012)

I had an ER Shaw on my last build.... 20" bull.... That sucker was accurate!!!


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2014)

....Factory savage barrels are flippin accurate. Savage rifles are some of the cheapest to buy, but are the most accurate to shoot out of the box. I've left plenty of guys on the range in the dust who were running remmies and that tikka junk with my savage.


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## Agney5 (Sep 28, 2013)

short204 said:


> ....Factory savage barrels are flippin accurate. Savage rifles are some of the cheapest to buy, but are the most accurate to shoot out of the box. I've left plenty of guys on the range in the dust who were running remmies and that tikka junk with my savage.


 That's it you lost all credibility with that statement. Lol I'm a Remington guy, most if my buddies are Savage guys. Haven't really noticed that much difference from one gun to the next, shooters on the other hand is a different story.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk


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## christopher (Oct 10, 2010)

you mean remington makes more than ammo


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## sneakygroundbuzzard (Nov 1, 2012)

aint nothing wrong with my tikka t3

i would put it up against any factory savage of the same caliber every day of the week

not to mention the fact the bolt in it is smoother than any savage bolt i have used

i own savage also,but like my tikka much better

it does cost a little more to own a tikka than a savage

but like anything else,you get what you pay for imho


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## Rediculous (Oct 16, 2013)

Remington gets all the tacticool accessories for sure and savages are great guns, but hands down, out of the box accuracy has got to be weatherby! I know guys that spend $1500-$3000 to get a remmy 700 to shoot in the lower MOA areas like less than half moa, they also make them look "cool", but any new model vangaurd 2 or mark V will shoot better that .75 moa out the box, and their Range Certified line is amazing. I have shot 3 different "RC" model weatherby's and they all hold bench rest competitive groups of around .35 moa. If you told a gunsmith to make you a rifle that shot less than .4 moa and guarantee it, he'd either laugh in your face, or ask for $5000. I know weatherby had really crappy triggers a while ago, but now, they are the top of the stack for brand new accuracy.


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## Scotty D. (Feb 23, 2012)

Wow -- REALLY!!! Manufactured items are manmade & imperfect... There are imperfections in EVERY man-made piece of manufactured merchandise in this world... The odds of getting an item w/ borderline quality control issues are a lot less than getting a piece that is almost perfect -- WITH ANY MANUFACTURER.

But please, go ahead & give us the "Seal Team Sniper" review on every manufactured weapon... It's cute....


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## Rediculous (Oct 16, 2013)

Scotty D. said:


> Wow -- REALLY!!! Manufactured items are manmade & imperfect... There are imperfections in EVERY man-made piece of manufactured merchandise in this world... The odds of getting an item w/ borderline quality control issues are a lot less than getting a piece that is almost perfect -- WITH ANY MANUFACTURER.
> 
> But please, go ahead & give us the "Seal Team Sniper" review on every manufactured weapon... It's cute....
> 
> Glad I could help! Thanks for the sarcasm, if it were witty at all, I may have been offended


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## Guest (Feb 9, 2014)

....man I love stirring the pot..... :stirthepot:


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## Agney5 (Sep 28, 2013)

Look what you did!


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## s_friz (Feb 5, 2014)

Man. We have gone a bit off topic here. I think I have made up my mind. I'm gonna go with the varmint exterminater kit from windham weaponry. Comes with a matched bolt, a fluted 20" stainless heavy barrel, gas block, gas tube, and free float hand guard.
Here's a link

http://www.windhamweaponry.com/shopexd.asp?id=184#axzz2srS6CJyH


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## MSpera (Dec 13, 2013)

Curious here. Pop your upper off, grab the barrel with your strong hand, grab the receiver with the other, and twist in opposite directions. Feel anything?


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## s_friz (Feb 5, 2014)

Nope, tight as can be.


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## s_friz (Feb 5, 2014)

My windham weaponry src before and after I upgraded it to a varminter. I slapped a vortex viper hs 4-16x44mm on it.


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## hassell (Feb 9, 2010)

Real nice.


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## Rediculous (Oct 16, 2013)

It looks good...and looks heavy, have you weighed it?


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## s_friz (Feb 5, 2014)

It weighs 8.2 without mag.


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## Bigdrowdy1 (Jan 29, 2010)

Hey guys check this guy out as well. i have a couple 6.8 barrels from hit and they hit the mark for sure. I havent bought a 5.56 /223 wydle from him i aint heard anything bad !!He uses 5R rifling and makes his own bolts. The are for the AR platform rifles.

http://www.AR15Performance.com


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