# Does anyone else think it is cheating to use a crossbow?



## 1099GL (Feb 8, 2013)

I think this is cheating because u can shoot alot further that a compound and attach a scope? Why don't you just buy a rifle I don't know it might just be me...


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## 22magnum (Feb 10, 2013)

Everyone knows that anything other than a spear is cheating! 

Sent from my SGH-T889 using Tapatalk 4 Beta


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## sneakygroundbuzzard (Nov 1, 2012)

actually anything other than throwing a rock by hand is cheating

SG, no i did not put him up to asking this question.

i am not a fan of them myself.

but i do beleive they have their place in hunting

if the state you live in says its a legal weapon,then so be it.if you choose to hunt with one thats a decision only the hunter can make.

here in minnesota they are legal to hunt with,but only during gun season for deer.makes no sense to me,and im not a fan of them,its still a bow and should be allowed during bow season

and no they dont shoot further than a compound bow or more accurately with a scope on them.

the skill still lies with the person holding the weapon.

they may shoot faster than most compound bows,but the trade off is noise.they are noisier than mose compund bows too.

alot of the high end compounds are shooting at or over 400 fps now,right up there with the xbows.

they are also more bulky than a wheelie bow or trad bow to hunt with,another disadvantge for the hunter.

so more skill is needed to maneuver when stalking etc.

when i bought my new bow last night and was shooting it at the archery shop on their indoor range.there was a guy there with his new pse xbow(an AR look alike).his was shooting over 400 fps,had a big scope on it,bipod etc.

i was shooting just as well as him.and my new bow just has fiber optic sights.

sure his bolts(arrows) got to the target quicker but they werent any more accurate.and that thing sounded like a rifle going off it was so noisy.

so cheating, no i dont think so

just a differant hunting style and challenge.

just like any weapon,its has its draw backs and things that one needs to over come to become proficciant with it in hunting situations.


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## 220swift (Mar 2, 2011)

I don't believe a crossbow is any more effective than a vertical. Lots of testing has been done on this topic with varied results. I do know from personal experience, I will out shoot most crossbows at ranges of 50 yards and over with my vertical bow. At those ranges vertical bows also have more kinetic energy and that is what is required to put an arrow in an animal for a clean kill shot. Also, vertical bows are sporting scopes that are yardage adjustable and a fix scope on a crossbow cannot adjust for yardage.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

I won't argue distance or energy, but, you can walk or sit with a xbow ready to fire. You're not gonna do that with a vertical, at least not for long. They are not legal here during bow season.


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## sneakygroundbuzzard (Nov 1, 2012)

yd, when i hunt with a wheelie bow i always have an arrow nocked

even while walking.whisker biscuits are great for this

i have even hold at full draw for over five minutes at times.

with the let off the newer wheelie bows have,your not holding much weight at full draw

my new bow is set at 60#,and has an 80% let off

so if i did the math correctly, i am only holding 12# at full draw

with practice one can hold that for quite som time

another draw back to a xbow,the time it takes to reload a bolt and draw the bow and get ready to shoot again


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## 220swift (Mar 2, 2011)

Geez SG, those Ohio deer must be part tame...LOL, the vertical bow guys out West are normally very precise about shot placement, miss a muley or an elk and you're looking for your next animal... :archery01:


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

sneakygroundbuzzard said:


> yd, when i hunt with a wheelie bow i always have an arrow nocked
> 
> even while walking.whisker biscuits are great for this
> 
> ...


I fully understand the reason for having an arrow nocked, unless you are in a tree stand hunting blind deer...but even with let off you still have to hold it, and it takes a certain amount of physical exertion, muscles get tired, you shake and sweat...I've yet to see a guy stalking through the woods with his bow at full draw. to hold it there and put the sneak on a deer from close in shooting range is possible but not probable IMO.

I do not think it's cheating as long as the powers that be allow it. I do think that there is an advantage over a wheelie...

Didn't we just have this conversation?


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## sneakygroundbuzzard (Nov 1, 2012)

yd, i would love to see a guy going thru the woods stalking a deer at full draw as he walks

that would be picture worthy

because with out it,no one would belive that you had actually seen it lol

and yes your are right,it does take some physical exertion to hold at full draw for an extended period of time

those times that i have done it for 5 minutes and more.i was shaking like leaf on a tree at the end of it and sweating like hog in august.come to think of it i remember blowing the shot too lol.

i do practice with my bow to hold for that long of a time.

i stand at about 10 yds and just hold draw untill i cant anymore,then just let the arrow fly not caring where it hits as it is just practice to teach my muscles to hold full draw for long periods.


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## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

Cross, vertical.... Both have advantages and disadvantages..... I give an X-bow a slight advantage. I think that having the weapon cocked and loaded gives a slight advantage. There is less movement needed to make the first shot. As far as a second shot..... I can think of only one second chance in almost 20 years.

As far as cheating goes..... Nope. Still harder than a gun and only slight advantages over a bow which can be overcome with practice. (Exception being kept ready to fire).

SG shooting the blind...... lol that would have gotten to me also.


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## Hortontoter (Apr 27, 2012)

No, 1099GL, it is not only you. Most "uninformed" people do see it as cheating to some extent. Crossbows have advantages and disadvantages as do most things. Modern crossbows use "speed" as the big selling point. But, that speed is most likely made by using the lightest arrow possible to get that "optimal" number that makes them sound like the best thing since sliced bread. But, if one understands physics they know this speed is very short lived. Most modern compounds will outshine crossbows in trajectory after 25 yards. This is due to the heavier arrow retaining its "slower" speed longer. Next we have penetration and kinetic energy. Penetration with an arrow is a critical, kenetic energy, not so much IMO. The heavier arrow outshines the lighter bolt again. The modern compound fitted with a peep sight and pins is like having a scope with no magnification. And if you want magnification you can have that on the compound bow also. The only true advantage that I see the crossbow has over the compound is less movement has to be made at the time of the shot. At times this can be a big advantage when hunting on the ground. But, you and I both know most bowhunters are hunting from tree stands.

I may be a cheater in some folks eyes, but when I go to the woods with my Horton SuperMag that sends my bolt at a blistering 226 feet per second (for the first foot, maybe) I somehow just don't see myself as a cheater.


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## fr3db3ar (Aug 6, 2011)

I dont' see them as "cheating". They are no more accurate and shoot no further (less in my opinion) than modern hand held bows. I can shoot my longbow 200 yards btw. ok, not accurately 

When I practiced regularly with my compound I was able to hit the target every time @ 80 yards. I only hunted out to 50 then because I could put them all in the size of your fist at that distance.

Pro's: always cocked, less movement to spook deer, you can shoot sitting on the ground

Con's: Heavy, heavy, heavy......did I mention heavy? slow to reload if a second shot is necessary or desired.


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## azpredatorhunter (Jul 24, 2012)

Using a Drone is cheating...


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## Ruger (Jan 22, 2011)

I'll stick to my wheelie bow, but no I don't think its cheating if your state regulations allow it.


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## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

SG I was just confirming one of those rare reports of bad shots..... Confirming for everyone that it was you! lol.


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## Scotty D. (Feb 23, 2012)

A few years back, I had a 4-wheeler accident that fractured my neck in 2 places....The healing process lasted thru deer season.. I *had* to use a crossbow...

I had to wake up early & get into my stand as quietly as possible. I had to sit quietly & (practically) motionless for hours on end. I had to lift my X-bow off of the bow hanger w/o the deer seeing movement.. I had to swing the crossbow completely to my left or right, depending on the deer approach. I had to aim precisely, & then make a good squeeze on the trigger...

The only difference between the x-bow hunt & my compound hunt is the fact that I have to make 1 extra move--the draw...

There's a gizmo out there on the market that allows a compound bow to be held at full draw for the entire hunt...


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## sneakygroundbuzzard (Nov 1, 2012)

That gizmo would be illegal here for hunting during bow season


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## 220swift (Mar 2, 2011)

same here in Colorado during archery season, illeagal


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## 220swift (Mar 2, 2011)

I'm trying to understand why as members of the shooting sports, we find the need to pit one against the other. We are at a time when we must ban together for a common cause, to keep our shooting sports intact and as a united group we WILL be able to fend off the antis and liberals.

Like YD stated, we just hashed this same topic over a few months ago. 1099GL I mean no disrespect, I do not believe for one minute that was your intent, you posted a topic that brings a lot of passion to both sides. I'm a bolt action rifle guy, that doesn't mean I feel the AR folks have an advantage, I see that as another member of the hunting and shooting sport I love.

WE ARE ALL IN THIS TOGETHER​


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## Scotty D. (Feb 23, 2012)

Well, I guess that this would also be a question that would delve deeper into this topic.....Does using a compound bow give an unfair advantage over those hunters using a recurve or a longbow??

Back when compound bows first came out, several states didn't allow the use of compound bows for hunting...Pope & Young didn't recognize any trophy shot w/ a compound until a few years after their introduction..

Some archery tournament organizations didn't allow them for competition, either...My Dad was on of the first people in our county to own a compound--a 10lb behemoth made by Allen archery...He was banned from shooting in the local tourneys cuz he was smokin' the other competitors...

X-bows are legal equipment in my state, so it doesn't matter to me what a person uses... I prefer my compound bow--although, I can't comfortably (or practically) draw any weight over 55lbs w/ my neck injury.. I wonder if that'll bring up a topic of how using anything less than a 70lb draw is considered inhumane or cheating???


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## birdginski (Mar 19, 2010)

Well seeings i'm an old fart rather than a whipper snapper. Had a wrist operation and artritise in both shoulders. Got a docter's note to the state so i got the permit to use one. I'm back into archery after 5 years of not being able to pull a bow back.


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## 220swift (Mar 2, 2011)

birdginski said:


> Well seeings i'm an old fart rather than a whipper snapper. Had a wrist operation and artritise in both shoulders. Got a docter's note to the state so i got the permit to use one. I'm back into archery after 5 years of not being able to pull a bow back.


good for you, glad you're able to get back into archery


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## glenway (Mar 27, 2011)

birdginski said:


> Well seeings i'm an old fart rather than a whipper snapper. Had a wrist operation and artritise in both shoulders. Got a docter's note to the state so i got the permit to use one. I'm back into archery after 5 years of not being able to pull a bow back.


Another great side-effect of crossbows: More people enjoying a hunt! Great for youngsters, too.


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## Ruger (Jan 22, 2011)

Whatever your favorite hunting apparatus is, get out in the woods and enjoy the time you have to spend out there!!!!


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## sneakygroundbuzzard (Nov 1, 2012)

birdginski said:


> Well seeings i'm an old fart rather than a whipper snapper. Had a wrist operation and artritise in both shoulders. Got a docter's note to the state so i got the permit to use one. I'm back into archery after 5 years of not being able to pull a bow back.


thats how it used to be here,had to be a medical reason for using one

but since thier popularity has gone way up they added them for anyone



Ruger said:


> Whatever your favorite hunting apparatus is, get out in the woods and enjoy the time you have to spend out there!!!!


a big +1

i wont hold it against anyone for using them,just not for me

atleast not yet as i can still pull my bows back


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## prairiewolf (Feb 19, 2012)

Hortontoter, you said most bowhunters use treestands, I have to disagree. Maybe back east for whitetails. But out west most bowhunters spot and stalk for elk and mule deer or any other species. I know the hunting shows show guys hunting elk from trees but they are from back east and thats just how they hunt. I have been bowhunting for almost 40 yrs and I know no one that uses a tree stand or blind.


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## sneakygroundbuzzard (Nov 1, 2012)

where i live most folks use tree stands

they think im nuts cause i use my ground blind

but lets face facts here

how many deer to you see sitting in trees

besides i like to be at eye level with the animal i am hunting,gives them a better chance and makes it more of a hunt in my opinion

besides i dont care for heights that much


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## prairiewolf (Feb 19, 2012)

I never did answer if I thought a crossbow was cheating, no I dont think it is. It is a different style of hunting in my opinon. Like YD stated they are illegal in Az. during archery seasons unless you have a handicap permit and prove that you cannot draw a bow back. To me they are just another style , same as setting a waterhole or ground blind, none of these are my style of hunting. I spot and stalk because I choose to hunt that way and that is what excites me. I also only use a rifle for coyotes and coues deer, and sometimes for them I use a handgun.IMO a person should use what they like as long as it is legal where you are hunting and like Mike said we all need to support each other.


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## sneakygroundbuzzard (Nov 1, 2012)

another reason i like to hunt from a blind vs a tree stand

when i fall asleep while hunting the fall to the ground isnt as dangerous lol

and i do fall asleep when hunting


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## hunter5567 (May 30, 2013)

I'd say its not cheating since they are bulkier and harder to maneuver through the trees and brush if you are stalking a deer and you have one shot so you better make it count. Its a lot easier to knock another arrow into a bow and shoot again. Not to mention difficult to cock while in a tree stand unless you have auto cocker things on it and that takes more time than just knocking an arrow and drawing again.

They don't have any more power than a compound but are easier to shoot with scope.

They also make a device like Lockadraw that enables you to keep a compound drawn and at the ready like a crossbow and basically makes it a verticle crossbow that can be cocked easily using your hands and legs and can convert any bow easily. Drawloc makes one too but it seems more complicated to set up and the Lockadraw is cheaper and doesn't have the shaft sticking out of the front of the bow after firing making it easier to cock when in a tree stand.

I wish they would have a pistol/revolver season with iron sights

check it out at lockadraw.com and no I'm not affiliated with the company, just ran across it looking for the Drawloc.


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## Hortontoter (Apr 27, 2012)

prairiewolf said:


> Hortontoter, you said most bowhunters use treestands, I have to disagree. Maybe back east for whitetails. But out west most bowhunters spot and stalk for elk and mule deer or any other species. I know the hunting shows show guys hunting elk from trees but they are from back east and thats just how they hunt. I have been bowhunting for almost 40 yrs and I know no one that uses a tree stand or blind.


You are correct, it is a different game in the west. I was thinking this part of the country. Even in Texas most hunt from blinds, box or tower stands. I'm guessing the terrain in the west is more suited to the spot and stalk game.

I don't care how one chooses to hunt or which legal implement they use. We could go on for days why I use this and others use what they use to hunt with. It is kinda like the old threads of is a .17HMR or .22 Mag a coyote round. In the hands of someone that knows the calibers limits and knows how to shoot well and understands bullet placement I say they both can be deadly to a coyote. Others will strongly disagree, so be it.

I use my crossbow for physical reasons and if anyone thinks I'm a cheater, so be it. I know when I climb into my converted Porta-Pot box stand 40 - 50 times every fall many deer will be within my 20 yard shooting limit. But, only one or two bucks that I pursue that season will be in danger.

That being said I feel I'm just another hunter in the woods seeking to acheive my predetermined hunting goal for that season. Most seasons that predetermined goal is not met, but the "real" goal of unwinding from lifes everyday stresses is met every time my butt meets the stool in my box blind. If the thrill only came with a kill I would only be "cheating" myself.

Arguing over petty things with our fellow sportsman will be the downfall of the sport that we all love. Hunting is what drives me, without hunting life would be very dull for myself. Only those that know me personally can totally understand what I mean.


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## hassell (Feb 9, 2010)

Great write-up, I pretty well follow along those lines of thought also.


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## C2C (Mar 17, 2012)

Great last post horntoter , a big argument is raging here in Alberta about whether or not crossbows or Xguns as the opposers call them should be allowed in archery season . Currently they are illegal without a Dr.s note saying the hunter is uncapable of drawing a bow . I am a bowhunter and can see both sides of the argument , the biggest problem that bowhunters rave about is the abilty to have a crossbow loaded and ready to go with no need for the movement problem faced by archers . As long as it is legal in your state , have at er and enjoy your hunt , way to much in fighting within the hunting ranks and I'm afraid it is gonna hurt us all .


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## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

I do not understand the argument. Are the opposers fearing the crossbows kill all the deer? Is it a safety concern for others?


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## Hortontoter (Apr 27, 2012)

itzDirty said:


> I do not understand the argument. Are the opposers fearing the crossbows kill all the deer? Is it a safety concern for others?


I think the number killed by crossbows is part of the opposition. I read a post the other day about the deer kill numbers in Michigan since legalizing the crossbow there. The post may have been on this site, I can't remember where I read it. To be honest, I found the number of users/deer taken suprisingly high.

I agree wholeheartedly that the crossbow is easier to be more accurate with, with less practice. My only beef is when people want to compare them to hunting with a gun. Rifles, shotguns with slugs and most likely most handguns have a much greater range than any crossbow does.


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## Hortontoter (Apr 27, 2012)

Found the article, here is the link (I hope).

http://www.nrahuntersrights.org/Article.aspx?id=7847


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## glenway (Mar 27, 2011)

Thanks, HT. To me, it's all good news and it seems as though the new crossbow law has done all that it was supposed to.

From Justin McDaniel's piece: One thing the expanded crossbow rules haven't done is produce the deer hunting Armageddon that crossbow opponents predicted.

In fact, Michigan's overall deer harvest for all seasons (including gun season) actually declined by 13 percent between 2008 and 2011, from 480,638 to 416,721. The 2010 harvest was even lower at 412,299.

Although the expanded opportunity has increased the number of archery hunters, and crossbow kills now make up a growing percentage of the archery harvest, the overall archery harvest has remained relatively stable for the past half-dozen years.

We still have far too many deer in Michigan, as evidenced by our continued ranking at the top of the nation in car/deer vehicle collisions. What's really wrong with our herd is a lack of quality and far, far too many does. Bringing more hunters to the woods was the primary goal. Not unlike most states, our participation numbers have been falling steadily, and with this move to strengthen the numbers having been successful, I say just quit with the anti-productive arguments against crossbows.

After all, the only money coming into Michigan's coffers for wildlife is from hunters (and fishermen and women) through license sales and excise taxes from the sale of hunting and fishing gear. The income is sorely needed.


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## C2C (Mar 17, 2012)

itzDirty said:


> I do not understand the argument. Are the opposers fearing the crossbows kill all the deer? Is it a safety concern for others?


A major part of the argument here is the fear that it will be too successful and put archery seasons on a draw basis instead of a general over the counter tag . It has already happened with mule deer , however that is not to be blamed on the crossbow , a poor harvest report and skewed numbers by fish and wildlife dept. are the problem .


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## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

I could hardly see the introduction of a crossbow increasing the number of deer taken by any meaningful percentage.


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## prairiewolf (Feb 19, 2012)

I dont mean to start another arguement here, but the way I see it with crossbows, inline muzzle loaders and even the newer compound bows is that alot of people go out and get them for reasons like, they are easier to use and they think they will be able to be successfull using them over the traditonal equipment and usually with archery and muzzle loading seasons there are less hunters in the field and the seasons come before the other gun seasons.Most people nowadays want the easy way out even when hunting, they dont want to practice or put their time into scouting.Now I dont think these ways are cheating or really any that much easier, but since their introduction into the sport the number of what I call slob hunters has increased alot. I see way more guys setting in the back of pickups with their wives driving during archery season(which is illegal in Az.) I have also seen 4-5 guys in those yuppie suits ( neon colored jogging suits) jump out of a new Jeep and start blasting at a herd of running elk with inline muzzle loaders, not knowing if they hit anything or not. This kind of stuff puts a bad taste in traditional hunters mouth and takes away from the guy really trying to hunt with his crossbow or inline muzzle loader.I have said it before, we all need to stick together but the A-holes mentioned above really hurt it for all of us.


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## Scotty D. (Feb 23, 2012)

prairiewolf said:


> I dont mean to start another arguement here, but the way I see it with crossbows, inline muzzle loaders and even the newer compound bows is that alot of people go out and get them for reasons like, they are easier to use and they think they will be able to be successfull using them over the traditonal equipment and usually with archery and muzzle loading seasons there are less hunters in the field and the seasons come before the other gun seasons.Most people nowadays want the easy way out even when hunting, they dont want to practice or put their time into scouting.Now I dont think these ways are cheating or really any that much easier, but since their introduction into the sport the number of what I call slob hunters has increased alot. I see way more guys setting in the back of pickups with their wives driving during archery season(which is illegal in Az.) I have also seen 4-5 guys in those yuppie suits ( neon colored jogging suits) jump out of a new Jeep and start blasting at a herd of running elk with inline muzzle loaders, not knowing if they hit anything or not. This kind of stuff puts a bad taste in traditional hunters mouth and takes away from the guy really trying to hunt with his crossbow or inline muzzle loader.I have said it before, we all need to stick together but the A-holes mentioned above really hurt it for all of us.


Ed, I can see your point about newer equipment attracting newbies that don't care about squat & don't know squat--they think the kill is what the hunt is all about, shooting up the area is a sure way to kill, etc., etc.

I must disagree w/ u on the part about newer technology... When I was a kid, I started out w/ bb guns & slingshots--then the pellet guns got more sophisticated & so did the slingshots--I saved $$ & bought the newer styles.. I've always loved to "upgrade" equipment...

At lunchtime on all-day bowhunts, I used to make $$ betting w/ the old-timer bowhunters that I could hit their hats when thrown into the air, w/ my cheap recurve-- compounds weren't even heard of, back then...I was was just into my teen years at the time... Then I progressed to compounds cuz it was a newer & I wanted to try it.. I liked my compounds..

Same goes w/ different rifles, shotguns, & muzzleloader styles ------ iron sights to range-finding high magnification optics, rangefinders, trigger releases for archery, etc,.. The list goes on & on.. Yet, I am a hunter--I've adapted to the newer technology & it has almost always been able to help me put more game on the table, shoot better, etc...

AR rifles are a prime example--I shot them in the service (b4 they were available to the common man for hunting/shooting) & I swore that someday I'd own one of those "black rifles" for hunting..

I don't think that technology has produced slob hunters, but rather lack of proper teaching methods to the younger generations, lack of respect for our quarry, the media's portrayal of hunting in general (hunting shows make it all look too easy) etc. etc...That list goes on & on, too, but I truly believe that weapon technology isn't the problem... :teeth:


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Scotty D. said:


> I don't think that technology has produced slob hunters, but rather lack of proper teaching methods to the younger generations, lack of respect for our quarry, the media's portrayal of hunting in general (hunting shows make it all look too easy) etc. etc...That list goes on & on, too, but I truly believe that weapon technology isn't the problem... :teeth:


+1 ......Especially on the teaching of young hunters. It used to be that you grew up in deer camp or in the field with your family elders and everyone taught you and watched over you. Now they learn from TV.


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## Ruger (Jan 22, 2011)

Very well said Scotty D.


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## 220swift (Mar 2, 2011)

+1 Scotty.........................


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## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

I think one of the worste things ever are the hunting video games. Maybe not all but the ones I have seen.... Ridiculous. Most folks I know that own and play the games are not hunters. Many of them think the game is an exaggerated version of hunting....

I know the games were intended to be fun and maybe they are but, I think they do some damage.


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## prairiewolf (Feb 19, 2012)

Well said Scotty and I also believe that its the causes you stated but still if the new technology wasnt available alot of them wouldnt be out there. I am not stating new is bad, or that we shouldnt have it, I also use a compound and a modern rifle and mdoern handguns. I was just stating, what I have noticed in over 50 yrs of hunting


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## hassell (Feb 9, 2010)

I don't normally follow the the bow forum as the bow hunting days are probably gone, did belong to a archery club years ago and used a Bear bow at our meets. All you experienced bow hunters have made some really interesting theories on the pros and con's. on this topic. Have enjoyed reading them all.


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## sneakygroundbuzzard (Nov 1, 2012)

another thought that came to mind on this topic was

it would only be cheating if your state doesnt allow the use of them and you use one, and or you were using them to poach and hunt illeagaly with them

then its cheating


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## JLowe69 (Nov 30, 2011)

I'm in the "its not cheating if its legal camp" too. It may not be my preferred method, but if it works for you, and its legal I say go for it. I don't use a x-bow, but have no issues with others who recognize there limitations using them. In fact, I will probably replace my compound with one someday when it get s to the point I need to, rather than stop archery hunting. To me its a lot like when I use my inline with a scope that makes up for my failing vision, its simply smart to use what helps you kill cleaner/faster and keeps hunting fun for you. So I say no, its not cheating if that individual feels its ok ethically, and its legal. Regardless of wether or not its what I like to use, as long as they are hunting legally they are on the right side of the issue in my book.


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## chopayne (Jan 26, 2013)

If Xbows are cheating in Bowhunting season, then so are compound bows = \ Anything other than traditional bows is technically cheating.


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## sneakygroundbuzzard (Nov 1, 2012)

chopayne said:


> If Xbows are cheating in Bowhunting season, then so are compound bows = \ Anything other than traditional bows is technically cheating.


on that line of thought then

wouldnt anything other than a hand carved self bow be cheating?

as they were the first style of bows used for hunting

and then again there was the ATLATL before the bow was invented,and before that the throwing spear,before that the thrusting spear

before that there was just rocks being thrown by hand

i am all for primitive hunting,if conditions and situations allow for it.

i am unable to hunt with my hand carved self bows out of a ground blind as they are much longer than a wheelie bow.and my double bull blinds just dont have the needed heigth to allow for a decent shot with them as the limbs always seem to make contact with the blind on release and this makes for a terrible shot regardless how well one can shoot them.

but i do prefer them,and have used them on spot and stalk hunts.

but like i have said, if its legal to use in your area then use it regardless of what others think.

if it makes you happy and gets you into the field to hunt thats all that realy matters.

i personally wont hold it against anyone what their weapon of choice is, i may razz them a little when i hunt with them.but its all in good natured fun 

but hey,they give me crap right back so its all good


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

chopayne said:


> If Xbows are cheating in Bowhunting season, then so are compound bows = \ Anything other than traditional bows is technically cheating.


************* Hampton would disagree !


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## sneakygroundbuzzard (Nov 1, 2012)

a big +1 SG


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## Scotty D. (Feb 23, 2012)

Stonegod said:


> Well as long as we're qualifying which weapon you have to step down to inorder to be considered not "cheating".....if you're not chucking a rock AND wearing a sabre-tooth tiger hide...in my book you're cheating.....though.....running a mammoth into a tar pit....can substitute for chucking a rock.


Dang it--I knew there was a rule that I forgot about...

I wasn't wearing my saber-tooth hide on my last mammoth...Hey, it was hot outside!!! So, of course, I was wearing my leopard-skin thong... And that was REALLY hot!!!! :roflmao:


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## sneakygroundbuzzard (Nov 1, 2012)

auuuuugh TMI ,theres an image i wont be able toget out of my head


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Yeah..thanks for that mental picture .


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## 1099GL (Feb 8, 2013)

Sorry guys I did not mean to start an argument I do not know I just thought with the faster speeds you could shoot further and more accurate


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## Scotty D. (Feb 23, 2012)

Stonegod said:


> "there's an image I won't be able to get out of my head"......"thanks for the mental picture"......you guys need to be daydreaming of something else!!.....try!!!!.....just try!! to get it out of your heads!!!.....that's just not right guys!!


Ah well, if I've left any lasting impressions (no matter how they are perceived), then my job is done.... LOL :roflmao:


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## olsonfia (Mar 12, 2013)

I'm in the its cheating if its illegal boat. I had a bow in my hand as soon as i could walk. A stick with bankline string and stick arrows my dad made for me. Then graduated to a littlebred bear recurve then a compound. Been shooting compound since. Although id like to get back to traditional shooting. Its fun for me. Not gonna bash the people who use a crossbow. I'm just going to choose not to use one unless i have to if i become disabled somehow. I live in the midwest and like to stalk on the ground just as much as use a treestand. Its all fun to me. Use what you want if ya can use it and happy hunting! PS Using a crossbow to me is like hunting with an AR. Do i have anything against them nope. Would I like to have one? Yep. Is it something I'm gonna save to buy amd hunt with? Nope. Ill stick with my compound and bolt guns cuz that's what i like lol


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Stonegod said:


> The thing that amazes me is that guys equate verticals with crossbows....they're two different weapons....shoot different arrows....have different ranges. It's like comparing ARs to bolts or bolts to shotguns or recurve to compound....all require a slightly different style of hunting. Xbows are not just for old guys who can't pull a bow any longer or for guys with a handicap. Like I've said before I can and have hunted with most of the above weapons.....I just like/prefer using a crossbow. I can shoot a gun or vertical as well as most....but an xbow is what I carry usually.


Most aren't equating them....most are saying that they are NOT equal that is why many do not think they should be allowed in bow season. I'll go a step further and say that the majority of those who DO NOT think they(xbows) should be allowed in bow season think that because you can walk around with it locked and loaded.

The AR's to bolts doesn't hold up either as semi-autos have been used to hunt for quite a few years and no one said a thing. Here in AZ a 5 round magazine is the maximum for big game(not for coyotes) whether it's an AR or a BAR or a Rem 7400.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

But the argument isn't about what YOU do (and I applaud you for you safety and good sense etc.).


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## olsonfia (Mar 12, 2013)

Use what ya like and are most comfortable with. We're all on the same team!! :lol:


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## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

Scotty D. said:


> Dang it--I knew there was a rule that I forgot about...
> 
> I wasn't wearing my saber-tooth hide on my last mammoth...Hey, it was hot outside!!! So, of course, I was wearing my leopard-skin thong... And that was REALLY hot!!!! :roflmao:


This might be funniest post of the year!


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## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

1099GL said:


> Sorry guys I did not mean to start an argument I do not know I just thought with the faster speeds you could shoot further and more accurate


I do t think anyone is arguing. We challenge each others opinions on occasion which leads to good conversation.


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## JLowe69 (Nov 30, 2011)

1099GL, I don't think you need to apologize either. For one reason. Its that myth that because they shoot faster, you can shoot farther, that a select few "slobs" have helped to promote some of the internal debates over if its cheating/should even be aloud or not from what I've seen. I know more than one guy, (well ok, only two of 'em) who thinks just because they can hit a target at 65-80 yds. consistantly they can kill a deer at 65-80 yds. even though that same deer will be somewhere between flinching and two bounds ahead before the bolt gets there more often than not. If the guy using the xbow knows its REAL limits though, its like so many said already, at most capable of the same distances as a modern compound on anything that could hear it and react. You just get the trade-off of extra weight, and width issues while shooting/maneuvering it, in exchange for not having to draw, and height issues. Then again thats just my $.02 from what I've seen from using both in Mi. before I moved here.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

itzDirty said:


> I do t think anyone is arguing. We challenge each others opinions on occasion which leads to good conversation.





Stonegod said:


> +1 to what itzdirty said....just friends discussing a topic.


+2


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## JLowe69 (Nov 30, 2011)

youngdon said:


> +2


+3, woulda been the short answer. lol


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

LOL I always say, there are three types of people in this world, those who can count and those who can't.


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## 22magnum (Feb 10, 2013)

Oh yeah.....just one more thing that bugs me!lol....vertical guys do it....xbow guys do it... even manufacturers of them do it for marketing reasons....BUT.....technically......if I has fletchings.....it's an arrow.....not a bolt.....bolts have no fletchings. Ok the turbo diesels are outside singing their morning songs.....and it's costing me about $230 an hour in labor plus fuel cost to have them just sitting there waiting for my butt....so it's time to go!!LOL 

What do you call bowfishing arrows?


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## prairiewolf (Feb 19, 2012)

Don, correction on what you told SG on semi autos for big game, there is no restriction on the size of mags used for game in Az anymore except for federal controlled species such as duck and dove. In other words you can use a 30 round mag for deer now if you really want to and remove your shotgun plug if not hunting duck or dove, but now that could be a whole dfferent topic on here, lol


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Good to know ! I was informed incorrectly....Thanks for the info. ..........That ain't right, and IMO encourages slob hunting.


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## prairiewolf (Feb 19, 2012)

+1 Don, it was changed last year but the regs didnt show it, but I personally called and verified last year. The new fall regs dont say a word about number of rounds except for federal species. But on the slob hunters with 30 round mags, I have heard them long before this in certain areas.


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## JLowe69 (Nov 30, 2011)

Don, it wasn't the counting part I had issues with, it was the order in which the posts were made. Although I'm not sure if thats much better. lol Somehow I thought you had posted before me when I went back and read my post, and I meant instead of my long drawn out post I should have just joined in with a +1 more. :teeth:


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## Jonbnks (Jan 21, 2012)

My uncle and cousin both tried using a crossbow and both missed several deer. My uncle is great with a bow out to 50 yards, but can't seem to get the crossbow to shoot how he wants. I have no problem hitting targets out to 75 yards, but the crossbow weighs twice as much as my compound bow. The crossbow we've used seems to work best if you're hunting out of a blind. It's been hard to keep around when using a treestand.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

I doubt it was the sight of the *X-**BOW *that caused them to drop over dead.....


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## wilded (Feb 10, 2010)

I have bow hunted for around 50 years. First with traditional long bow, then a grizzly recurve and later several different compounds. My first was an all wood browning with wheels on the ends my last was a Matthews. Bows have a longer draw and longer limbs and thus shoot a heavier arrow farther and with much less of a curved trajectory than a crossbow. I could shoot a deer much farther without having to know the exact distance than I can with a crossbow. After three shoulder surgeries I now can not shoot a bow so I hunt with a crossbow. I find it is much louder that a compound, shoots a lighter arrow and has a much more curved trajectory which all add up to making the crossbow inferior to my Matthews compound. I find that those that think a crossbow is cheating or is like a rifle have not hunted much more than a hay bale at around 20 yards. If it is legal why divide the ranks. JMHO Wild Ed


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## wilded (Feb 10, 2010)

Horton 175


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## wilded (Feb 10, 2010)

My first recurve was a Bear Grizzly, a Bear Takedown, then a Martin Takedown and later custom Chekmates from a maker in Canada. I loved good fast recurves in the 52-62 pound range when I could pull them. Bow hunting is what eventually ruined my shoulder is what the Doc told me. When I quit I was shooting a 60lb hickory/oak flat selfbow with homemade arrows and knapped points.


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## Hortontoter (Apr 27, 2012)

wilded said:


> I have bow hunted for around 50 years. First with traditional long bow, then a grizzly recurve and later several different compounds. My first was an all wood browning with wheels on the ends my last was a Matthews. Bows have a longer draw and longer limbs and thus shoot a heavier arrow farther and with much less of a curved trajectory than a crossbow. I could shoot a deer much farther without having to know the exact distance than I can with a crossbow. After three shoulder surgeries I now can not shoot a bow so I hunt with a crossbow. I find it is much louder that a compound, shoots a lighter arrow and has a much more curved trajectory which all add up to making the crossbow inferior to my Matthews compound. I find that those that think a crossbow is cheating or is like a rifle have not hunted much more than a hay bale at around 20 yards. If it is legal why divide the ranks. JMHO Wild Ed


Finally, someone that actually understands physics. I've argued trajectory for years and everyone thinks I'm crazy.


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## wilded (Feb 10, 2010)

No it is the compound 175


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## wilded (Feb 10, 2010)

Hortontoter said:


> Finally, someone that actually understands physics. I've argued trajectory for years and everyone thinks I'm crazy.


Poundage is not everything is it? Draw length, limb length, arrow weight and broadhead weight all factors in.

Test:

Sight your compounds and crossbows in at 15 yards then shoot a 40 yard target. The second test is to shoot equal weight arrows out of your crossbow and compound at 40 yards. It will open your eyes. Wild Ed :lurk:


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## wilded (Feb 10, 2010)

Stonegod said:


> What weight arrow are you shooting wild Ed? (head/arrow combo). My xbow uses the same crosshairs at 20 and 30yds (shoots dead nuts)....and drops about 11/2" at 40yds.


I can not tell you as mine is up at the place in the barn. It must be a heavier point than you are shooting as mine drops between 20 and 30 Yards a good 2 inches, plus your recurve will have a longer draw stroke than my compound. I used to hunt quite a few hogs so I was shooting a large 3 blade head that would blow a hole for a good blood trail and quick kill. I found the smaller heads wounded to many hogs are left no blood trail. I only shot it three times last year. One time at a 20 yard bull and then at two deer. Both kills were small does at around 20 steps so no problem at all to drop them. One ran maybe 30 yards and the other fell over when hit. Ed


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## sneakygroundbuzzard (Nov 1, 2012)

Ed did you knapp them points?
If not you,then who did?


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## wilded (Feb 10, 2010)

I knapped them and these










My Horton shot barely over 300 fps the only time I got to check it several years ago. Wild Ed


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## sneakygroundbuzzard (Nov 1, 2012)

Looks good to me
You know what they say about us knappers "we do it to make a point"
And they also say "knappers do it until they break their rocks"


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## sneakygroundbuzzard (Nov 1, 2012)

no my tractor broke down this morning in south st.paul right at the beginning of morning rush hour.

so i was cruising the web on my smart phone,gotta love them things

i was parked for 4.5 hrs waiting for the shop to come and bring me a differant rig and pick up the broken one

i had the right side front dual start smoking and throwing alot of grease.

i pulled off onto the shoulder of I494 and inspected it and called the shop,they had me linp it to the next exit

so i pulled into a menards parking lot and found that the axle was coming out of the differential.

ended up putting in a 16 hour day today because of that breakdown,i should have been home by about 2:30-3:00 pm,but didnt get home untill 8:30 pm because of that.

i talked with one of the mechanics at the shop before i left tonight

he said the outer bearing exploded and caused the axle/hub asy/wheel asy to slide out.thankfully it didnt come all the way out while i was driving.

it also ended bending the axle shaft asy,and possibly the spindle

so i will be driving a differant rig on monday and possibly untill wednesday.

today i got to drive one of the nicest rigs in out fleet.

its a 2012 Mac with and automatic trans,very sweet and very quiet rig,all the creature comforts you can imagine.

with my arthritis in y knees it was nice to not have to push a clutch all day.i could get used to driving that truck.

buty unfortunatly it is assigned to a driver with much more seniority than i have.

like i said earlier

i am starting to hate fridays at work

last week i had my arm get smashed on friday due to equipment failure

ended up with blood pouring down my left arm.

got three stitches and a bruise that goes from the middle of my bicep to my wrist

couldnt even go out last weekend and shoot my new bow,that pissed me off

couldnt ride my motorcycle,that pissed the wife off as she wanted to go for ride since turkey season is over

which is always the begining of our riding season

i think next week i will take friday off lol


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Geez,........ Buzzards luck you got going !


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## sneakygroundbuzzard (Nov 1, 2012)

youngdon said:


> Geez,........ Buzzards luck you got going !


yup,if it werent for bad luck

i wouldnt have any luck at all


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## sneakygroundbuzzard (Nov 1, 2012)

i have a 2006 kawaski vulcan classic LT900

i didnt break it, i told the mechanics two weeks ago that something was wrong because it was starting to pull to the right

they said "oh it just needs to have the fifth wheel greased good.when they get dry they will cause the trailer to stick to one side"

i told them it was greased,but they piled on more grease

and guess what it still pulled to the right.

im thinking that the bearing was slowly seizing up and causing the pull to the right.

now after they fix it i bet the pull is gone too.

i look at it like this.

one trailer tried to break me last week,now it was my turn to break something lol

i will try and post a pic from my cell phone of my arm

hope it works


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## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

SGB, that hurts just looking at your arm. oooouuuuccchhhhhhh.


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## Rick Howard (Feb 25, 2012)

Ouch!


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

OUCH is right !


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## sneakygroundbuzzard (Nov 1, 2012)

SG, mine is red and black too

it was the nicest color combo they had on that model for that year

my next one is gonna be a fully loaded Gold Wing

yup it hurt guys,but it wasnt so much the initial impact that hurt,or the cut.

as it was such a sudden and smashing impact blow that it went numb instantly.

it was all the swelling that occured.the pressure from the swelling was almost intolerable

the only other time i have ever had a bruise like that or felt pain like that was after my ACL surgery on my right knee


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## Adrian J Hare (Jan 31, 2012)

I shoot them both and as far as having an advantage that's so not true. Scopes don't make them shoot any better, they still wind plain like a compound will. They really don't shoot any farther, only hunters take the gun approach and test their farther point of range.

So here is a question ? I just hurt my shoulder. The pain has been something else, I try to pull the Mathews and the strain of the straight pull back and anchor is to much to hold.

I now have to quit hunting ? because of an injury ?

The bow season in Canada runs into the end of December. The winter cold hits close to -20 and sitting in a tree for more then 20 minutes requires a heavy layer of clothing , much to balky to draw a compound properly and get that proper ethical hit .

Now I have to quit hunting because crossbows are cheating ?

Seriously , we all are going to get old and i'm well on my way, but I don't want to be taken out of the hunting world so soon because there is no other means to bow hunt other then a Compound Bow.

A Cross bow is not one bit easier then a compound, matter of fact I would soon use my compound because they are not a clumsy as a crossbow is...


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## prairiewolf (Feb 19, 2012)

I have said this earlier in this thread, theres nothing wrong with using a crossbow but they have the one advantage of being at full draw for an indefinate time and you cannot do that with a compound or traditional equipment. I am a traditional hunter mostly but have several compound bows also and when I get to old or injury where I cannot use them , I would certainly use a crossbow if Arizona would let me.


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## LeadHead (Feb 11, 2012)

Everyone knows that using anything besides your bare hands is cheating! :mrgreen: Last year I had a rotator cuff problem and got a doctor's note to apply for a crossbow license. I thought that it would be a good opportunity to try something that should give me an extra advantage to put more meat in the freezer and also figured it would be difficult to go back to a compound once my shoulder healed. Wrong. Like the rest of you guys, it soon became evident that sucker was/is HEAVY and very awkward to carry in the woods compared to my 32" axle-to-axle bow. Not only that, the chance for a 2nd shot is basically nil due to the loudness of the shot. (Yes, I've been granted 2nd shots on more than one occasion, and one time back when I was a newbie I even got a 3rd shot on a doe when I'd miscalculated the range while hunting from 20+ feet up a tree.) Also, considering the enormous amount of movement/noise to cock a x-bow compared to a compound, unless you have a cocking device it's a pain in the neck to get another bolt nocked, let alone quietly. If you're in a tree stand, forget it.

Unless a person has a shooting rest for a x-bow, because of the additional weight there doesn't seem to be much--if any--advantage to holding a modern high-letoff compound bow at full draw and trying to hold up a x-bow. 
Happily, this year my shoulder is fine and it feels so much better carrying my compound into the woods. I'll stick to using one of them until it's no longer physically possible to use one. Otherwise, if it's what a person has to do to get a chance to be in the woods and it's legal in your state to use one, go for it.


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## glenway (Mar 27, 2011)

"Unless a person has a shooting rest for a x-bow..." You've touched on the answer to one of the ills of a crossbow right there, LH.

Over the years I have added the swing-up bars to all of my store-bought treestands that were not supplied with them. One reason was for safety and the other was to rest firearms. Those same strap-on, padded bars now provide the perfect rest for the crossbow. I also hunt from homemade stands, all of which are designed to accommodate the crossbow's clumsiness. No problem.

I carry my crossbow over my shoulder with a rubber sling - just like any hunting rifle. No problem.

Yes, it is noisy to cock, but that's done in advance. Yes, it makes much noise upon release, but so does a gun. And, since my deer gun is a NEF Ultra slug single-shot, my T/C Contender (see avatar) is a single-shot, and my Knight muzzleloader is a single-shot, I've been forced to learn the ethical discipline necessary to become effective. The crossbow is also a single shot. No problem.

The only other issue is trajectory, but what hunting tool doesn't have trajectory to deal with over a given distance? The ranging scopes, that are standard equipment on most crossbows, do a fine job of helping the user compensate for distance. Of course, the user must still know his range to make it all work, but then again, ranging is key across the board. Therefore, trajectory is no particular issue, either.

As, Ed mentioned above, being able to keep them cocked and locked minimizes movement in crucial situations and gives a huge advantage to the crossbow user.

The key to using any hunting tool is to understand it and your own limitations. Then adapt accordingly. No problem.


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## Brian140 (Jan 14, 2013)

I do not think this is cheating. People said the same things when the compound came out
I'll stick with my bow.


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