# Extractor Issues



## bar-d

Any of you AR builders/shooters ever run into extraction issues on a carbine AR? I am still trying to work out the problem with my build. It will not extract the fired case. Everything I have researched points to overgassing, causing rapid bolt function, not allowing the cartridge time to return to normal size. The bolt functions before the pressure has dropped in the barrel because the distance from the gas vent to the bolt is so short on the 16" barrel. Even with an upgraded extractor spring and o-ring, same problem. I have a suspicion the buffer spring that came in my collapsible stock set was a middy or rifle spring. I have ordered a Wolff Extra Power Carbine spring and H buffer. 
Hopefully, this will slow the cycle time and allow enough dwell time to function correctly this time. Any thoughts?


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## youngdon

Try ar.com or one of the websites that deal exclusively in AR info.


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## knapper

The carbine type have a smaller gas port than the longer barrels so they must work with loads that are higher pressure than the rifle ones do. I have seen a gas tube that will circle around the barrel and give more time for the gas pressure to travel around the tube and get to the action. I haven't shot many loads that were not other than mil-spec 55 gr. and some are 62 gr. That is what I have read, or seen on videos. Some times I have some cases that do not have the pressure to bring the bolt to hold it open, this is while target shooting in a match rifle.


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## ebbs

Not sure if youngdon meant http://www.ar15.com or if there's another site similar to it. You may have checked there already. LOTS of resources and guys who have had the same problem you have before. I've never heard of it repeatedly like that. You basically have got a really fancy single shot, huh? Maybe you should post it in the Single Shot thread.


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## youngdon

That sucks bar-d who did you get that upper from?


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## El Gato Loco

youngdon said:


> That sucks bar-d who did you get that upper from?


Yea! But more importantly, where did your perfect lower come from??


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## ebbs

youngdon said:


> That sucks bar-d who did you get that upper from?


If I remember right that's the one he got from Rguns.com.


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## bar-d

ebbs said:


> Not sure if youngdon meant http://www.ar15.com or if there's another site similar to it. You may have checked there already. LOTS of resources and guys who have had the same problem you have before. I've never heard of it repeatedly like that. You basically have got a really fancy single shot, huh? Maybe you should post it in the Single Shot thread.


A very expensive single shot.


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## bar-d

ebbs said:


> If I remember right that's the one he got from Rguns.com.


Yup, from Rguns. I sent the complete upper back and they "checked it out" and it worked fine for them. They said they shot it and it functioned just fine.


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## bar-d

Chris Miller said:


> Yea! But more importantly, where did your perfect lower come from??


Got if from Super C's Firearms Emporium. Excellent customer service. Limited inventory but was able to score 2 Spike's Tactical lowers before they relocated.


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## wvcoyote

bar-d, I know people having had problems similar to what is happening to you . What caused thier problem was not properly lubing the bolt carrier group.
couple of ideals to try, lulubricating the whole bolt carrier assembly, also after chambering a round tapping your forward assist to make sure your bolt is fully forward and locked.
hopethese ideals help.


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## wvcoyote

this what I was talking about


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## bar-d

wvcoyote said:


> bar-d, I know people having had problems similar to what is happening to you . What caused thier problem was not properly lubing the bolt carrier group.
> couple of ideals to try, lulubricating the whole bolt carrier assembly, also after chambering a round tapping your forward assist to make sure your bolt is fully forward and locked.
> hopethese ideals help.


Nope, that ain't it. Cleaned, lubed, checked gas seal alignment, the whole 9 yards. The bcg has been cleaned and lubed 6 times in shooting the 25 rounds I have fired through it. The bolt and extractor seats properly, even tried the forward assist, but the ejector scrapes the side of the rim, pulling off brass shavings.


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## headhunter25

Stupid question but are your gas rings on the bolt lined up? They don't need to be. For sure it won't cycle then. That's weird, it functioned fine at the factory but won't shoot worth a *[Excuse my language.... I have a limited vocabulary]* back home. Has to be something simple.

Chris C.


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## bar-d

headhunter25 said:


> Stupid question but are your gas rings on the bolt lined up? They don't need to be. For sure it won't cycle then. That's weird, it functioned fine at the factory but won't shoot worth a *[Excuse my language.... I have a limited vocabulary]* back home. Has to be something simple.
> 
> Chris C.


Check the alignment to make sure they are staggered every time I clean and lube the bcg. I have no idea what kind of lower they mounted it on to test fire it. More than likely it was a carbine spring and heavy buffer. As I posted earlier, I suspect the spring in the stock I put on it is a rifle spring. Thanks.


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## ebbs

Chris C., even something simple like maybe they sold him a lemon? Never know, if tolerances aren't up to par it could very easily function as a whole and fire the round okay, but not allowing something small like the extractor to pull the spent casing out. When bar-d first posted about his upper he got from Rguns I remember Chris M. saying something about hearing negative feedback on the Rguns stuff.

They've been saying all along that it fired okay for them, but haven't given him any kind of proof. Bar-d had to go through all kinds of hoops to get them to have a look at the BCG, then even to get it back from them, then had to have the whole upper sent in. Doesn't seem like much of a standup operation to me.


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## bar-d

Trying to get any info out of them was like pulling teeth. I got no explanation, written, spoken or otherwise about what they did to "check it out". Just, "it worked fine for me". That is why I have no idea what the real problem with it is and am having to try one thing at a time to try to fix the problem myself. *Frustrating*








Good price or not, I will never buy anything else from them. It is not worth the hassle to save $50.


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## ebbs

Had a factory defect on a gun I bought new one time. It was my first Thompson Center Encore I ever bought, the 50 cal Pro Hunter muzzleloader. Anyway, took it to the range when I still just had open sights on it and couldn't figure out why my point of impact was landing 6" left at 50 yards no matter how much I adjusted the rear windage. Moved to 100 yards and it was a foot left. A good 'ole hunting buddy of mine was standing behind me and insisted I have a look at the barrel from the bore to the frame. IT WAS CURVED!

Apparently after production it somehow randomly missed the laser barrel straightening device and left boxed up in pitiful condition. You could take that barrel off the frame and lay it on a flat surface and there was nearly 1/16" of a gap between the table and the middle of the barrel. I was sick, but TC received the gun quickly, was easy to communicate with, and all in all I had it back within 2 weeks of the day I had it sent in for repair. The point I'm trying to make is, they sent me a range report along with the order sheet to show where it had been and what was wrong with it then what they did to fix it. Along with the range report I received the paper target they used to show it's accuracy dead center at 50 yards and the windage on the rear site had returned to "zero."

A good gunmaker/seller/dealer is going to issue proof of some sort of what they did, how they fixed it, and proof of testing it for safety and effectiveness. It doesn't appear that Rguns has done any of those things to back themselves up or give you piece of mind.

Love that barrel. Took several whitetails with it since then and can ring a gong at 250 yards over and over. Once I got over everyone giving me crap about shooting deer around corners and trees with my gun that curved bullets, I was a happy camper.


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## headhunter25

Question Bar-D.... Are you shooting factory ammo or reloads?? Reason I ask I have been down this road before. Also is the spent round stuck in the chamber, having to get it out with a cleaning rod. Could be that when they reamed the chamber the reamer was close to being out of speck. Hense making for a tight chamber. A couple of thousands could make a difference.

Plus what's Rguns?? Remington?? Another idea is if you have a friend that has an AR also put your upper on his lower and see what happends.

Chris C.


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## bar-d

headhunter25 said:


> Question Bar-D.... Are you shooting factory ammo or reloads?? Reason I ask I have been down this road before. Also is the spent round stuck in the chamber, having to get it out with a cleaning rod. Could be that when they reamed the chamber the reamer was close to being out of speck. Hense making for a tight chamber. A couple of thousands could make a difference.
> 
> Plus what's Rguns?? Remington?? Another idea is if you have a friend that has an AR also put your upper on his lower and see what happends.
> 
> Chris C.


Federal factory 50 gr. hp. The case is not stuck. When it fires the extractor is engaged but slips off the rim. Since I can only shoot one round from the mag at a time, the bolt stays open after the shot. Hit the bolt release, bolt closes, and manually eject with charging handle every time. I think the case it still expanded and because of the carbine length, the bolt goes back before the pressure has time to clear the barrel letting the case return to normal size. The Wolff Extra Power spring and H buffer I ordered should at least tell me if I am on the right track.


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## bar-d

ebbs said:


> A good gunmaker/seller/dealer is going to issue proof of some sort of what they did, how they fixed it, and proof of testing it for safety and effectiveness. It doesn't appear that Rguns has done any of those things to back themselves up or give you piece of mind.
> 
> Love that barrel. Took several whitetails with it since then and can ring a gong at 250 yards over and over. Once I got over everyone giving me crap about shooting deer around corners and trees with my gun that curved bullets, I was a happy camper.


You are absolutely correct ebbs. They should have told me something, even if it did work for them. The only questions I was asked, and this was by the owner, was what ammo was I using and what kind of lower/stock combo. He said the ATI Strikeforce stock I had was an import and probably had a cheap spring. ATI's website says they are made in the USA but I did not argue. He said he was going to send a different buffer spring, but he did not. So, I am stepping on one bug at a time to try to get this thing geehawing.


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## bar-d

Got my spring and hbuffer. Installed it and went to shoot it. First Federal factory round, same dang thing. Shot 3 Wolf Steel Case 50 gr fmg, ejected every one. Shot about 8 Federal brass RELOADS with 50 gr. hp. Ejected all but 2. I put the last two of the reloaded rounds in the magazine, both fed, fired and ejected, bolt held open. For some reason, the Federal Factory load will not extract, but the same brass, reloaded, will. I am going to town this weekend and buy a bunch of Wolf and put about a hundred rounds through it and then try the Federal Factory and my reloads again. If the FF still does not cycle, I will just shoot them up in my bolt action and reload them for the AR.


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## ebbs

So it's SOME good news at least, right?


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## bar-d

Yeah, good thing too. I still have a little hair left. I checked the load info on those Federal Factory 50 gr. hp. They are loaded to 3400 fps. Checked my loads on the 50 gr. and I had loaded them to 3200 fps. That is going to be a pretty good pressure difference. I am going to load a few 50 gr. V-Max to shoot after I shoot the Wolf stuff and see what happens with that. These factory loads are nearly always hotter in these varmint rounds as they use proprietary powders. I nearly alway load in the midrange of the charts to give me room for any anomaly in powder weight or bullet weight. I don't like to shoot anything on the higher side of pressures. A couple of hundred fps can make a lot of difference in the pressure and no difference whatsoever on the coyote. At least I have a starting place to remedy this thing. I will work up a good 50 to 550gr. load with the V-Max or Sierra Blitzking in the 3000 to 3200 fps range and adjust the loads for the best ballistics and best function.


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## ebbs

I still wish we had a better handle on what exactly is causing that. Any AR I've had (4 now) have gobbled up and spit out literally everything I've thrown at them. Varmint rounds, cheapy polymer coated steel cased Wolf, Federal Lake City 5.56 55gr FMJ, American Eagle XM193 ball ammo 55g FMJ, Federal Match Grade 62 gr BTHP, even Brown Bear Russian .223 has had zero problems whatsoever. I just don't get it. Will be cool for you to find something that works reliably, but still frustrating that the core of the issue doesn't seem to be knocked out.


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## El Gato Loco

ebbs said:


> I still wish we had a better handle on what exactly is causing that. Any AR I've had (4 now) have gobbled up and spit out literally everything I've thrown at them. Varmint rounds, cheapy polymer coated steel cased Wolf, Federal Lake City 5.56 55gr FMJ, American Eagle XM193 ball ammo 55g FMJ, Federal Match Grade 62 gr BTHP, even Brown Bear Russian .223 has had zero problems whatsoever.


I am thinking the same thing, ebbs. I'm on my 4th complete AR too. An armalite, a bushmaster, a Ruger (piston gun) and the Remington R-15. All have taken any and all ammo I have loaded them with. The only issue I ever had was with Hornady 40 grain vmax's not firing in the Remington and it was because I was running the firing pin with too much lube.

I am feeling sorry for you, Danny. Glad you haven't given up yet! I think you will be really happy when you get this figured out!


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## Helmet_S

Ebbs is right. Any decent company shuold provide prrof of what they did to test your gun. I had a problem with a H&R Ultra varmint rifle chambered in 204 (long story). in the end they satisfied me and each time it went back I would reveive a target showing what they found.

Ebbs. I remember when you had that issue with that barrel and I have to say that everyone giving you crap about shooting around corners was pretty funny.


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## bar-d

Well, I was just tickled pink to see the first cartridge come flying out the ejection port. It would have been nice if they had told me what ammo they were using (I told them what I was using), what spring/stock set up, blah, blah, blah. After changing out the extractor spring and it did not solve the problem, I convinced myself it was a gassing problem but even with the Wolff Extra Power spring and Hbuffer, it still does not extract the Fed. Factory rounds. They told me they were polishing the chamber some more but I can't tell any difference in the way it looks or shoots from before I sent it in. I will eventually get it fellers, thanks for the concern. I am telling you, I am just like the hillbillies on HeeHaw. Gloom, despair and agony on me. Deep, dark depression, excessive misery. If it wernt for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all. Gloom, despair and agony on me! To prove what I am talking about, I ordered an AR 4 brush cleaning, set from Midway while I was waiting on my upper. It came in today with the spring and buffer and out of the thousands they sell, the chamber brush has no thread assembly on it!! Fixin to send it back to them right now.


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## ebbs

Maybe you're right. You possibly have the worst luck of anyone I know regarding this stuff.


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## bar-d

Whoops! I just re-read my 12:39 post. I will NOT be loading any 550 grain V-Max for this rifle.


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## bar-d

ebbs said:


> Maybe you're right. You possibly have the worst luck of anyone I know regarding this stuff.


I ASSURE you ebbsy, If there were a factory run of 18,657 of any product, I would get the only defect in the bunch.


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## bar-d

Chris Miller said:


> I am feeling sorry for you, Danny. Glad you haven't given up yet! I think you will be really happy when you get this figured out!


Don't sweat it Chris, I am used to this kind of stuff. If I can't get it working, I'll use it as a trotline weight or something.


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## ebbs

bar-d said:


> I ASSURE you ebbsy, If there were a factory run of 18,657 of any product, I would get the only defect in the bunch.


I'm really hoping this won't happen to my dad. He's taken some convincing to go to an AR and is picking up his first one including our matching R15s from his distributor in Quincy, Ill today! I doubt he'd have the fortitude to stick with it as you have. Glad to hear your handloads have been reliable though. That's what he's intending to do.


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## bar-d

ebbs said:


> I'm really hoping this won't happen to my dad. He's taken some convincing to go to an AR and is picking up his first one including our matching R15s from his distributor in Quincy, Ill today! I doubt he'd have the fortitude to stick with it as you have. Glad to hear your handloads have been reliable though. That's what he's intending to do.


 If he is buying a complete rifle, chances are he won't have the trouble I have. I have this thing about doing things myself instead of paying someone else to do it. I have learned welding, electrical, plumbing, a/c, mechanics and a bunch of other things over the years and take care of all mine myself. I guess you could say I am mechanically inclined and hard headed enough to think I can save money by doing it myself. Kind of a farmer/rancher thing. If you can't work on your own equipment you are in big trouble.It has always worked out well for me so I ASSUMED building an AR would be no different. I am going to make this thing work, it is just taking more time than I thought. But, since is the first AR I ever even held, let alone built, I have to go through the learning curve. I am still going to come out on top, moneywise as a varmint AR with all that I have included in this rifle runs from $1100 to $1400 from all the estimates I got. AR Builder, dealers, stuff like that. I am going to have about $750 in this one when I am done so I think I still will come out OK.
I see you have almost made 300, DIE HARD. Hurry up before Chris logs on and changes it up.


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## ebbs

Danny I can relate to wanting to do things yourself. The first AR I ever owned was built from a parts kit from CMMG, inc. I'd never even held one, nor did I have any idea how to build it. I invested $4 in a Marine Corps manual on the M16 and built it from that. The first time at the range I couldn't figure out why my groups were 12" at 25 yards. Little did I know there was a barrel and forend tool to help me tighten the barrel nut to the upper frame. It was so loose it was slinging stuff everywhere!

Here I was in the dumps for a while because I thought my 16" Heavy Match grade barrel was a lemon, and this whole AR thing was a joke! I sure am glad I stuck with it.


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## bar-d

Me too. I am feeling better about the whole thing. I have been perusing my load manuals and powder burn rates. I have come up with a couple of loads that will keep me in the 3000 fps range with a 50 gr. V-Max but keep the pressures 6000 to 13000 cup lower that a load at 3300 fps. I think I can work with it. Anywho, it's all back together and here it is with my homemade scope mounted light I built for it.


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## ebbs

AWESOME! Are you going to put up instructions and a shopping list for your DIY spotlight? That looks like just the trick to start pickin' em off the bone pile!

Chris M. swears by that 50 grain v-max. So much so that it's the first load I'm going to try in my R15 when I get it here next week.


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## hassell

Sure glad some things have started to turn around for you, theirs only so much hair a person can pull out, and as we get older theres not much to pull out anyways! One of my favorite sayings is : I Couldn't Win At Bingo If I Was The Only Person In The Hall !


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## bar-d

Yes, if anyone is interested I will post a how to pretty soon. I have been loading the V-Max ever since they came out and really like them. I even load a 20gr. V-Max in my .17 Remington.


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## bar-d

hassell said:


> Sure glad some things have started to turn around for you, theirs only so much hair a person can pull out, and as we get older theres not much to pull out anyways! One of my favorite sayings is : I Couldn't Win At Bingo If I Was The Only Person In The Hall !


Thanks hassell. I like to quote Chief Dan George in the movie Outlaw Josey Wales. He said "We will endeavor to persevere".


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## bar-d

headhunter25 said:


> Plus what's Rguns?? Remington?? Another idea is if you have a friend that has an AR also put your upper on his lower and see what happends.
> 
> Chris C.


Sorry Chris, I forgot to answer this part of your question. This is them........
http://rguns.net./


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## hassell

Now that was a good movie, sure I've watched it a dozen times! Thats one sweet looking setup you have there, wish we were allowed to have those up here, I read all the AR article's and can only drool!


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## bar-d

hassell said:


> Now that was a good movie, sure I've watched it a dozen times! Thats one sweet looking setup you have there, wish we were allowed to have those up here, I read all the AR article's and can only drool!


Thank you sir. My main purpose for building a rifle in this configuration is for night hunting. Short and easy to swing in a smaller area with the semi auto action, I will be able to make more shots on a bunch of hogs before they can get completely away from the area.


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## wvcoyote

bar-d, glad to read that things is starting to go your way. That is a great looking rig you got there with the light.


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## bar-d

wvcoyote said:


> bar-d, glad to read that things is starting to go your way. That is a great looking rig you got there with the light.


Thanks wvcoyote. Be glad to get it all tuned up and get after em.


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## ebbs

If you're shooting in the truck (not so much the Mule) might I suggest a brass catcher? those things can come out of there fast enough to jump all over that cab. Would hate for one to land on your neck or your chotchkas!


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## bar-d

ebbs said:


> If you're shooting in the truck (not so much the Mule) might I suggest a brass catcher? those things can come out of there fast enough to jump all over that cab. Would hate for one to land on your neck or your chotchkas!


 Already have one ebbsy. Having reloaded for 30 plus years, I am obsessed with finding my brass. This will help keep it corralled.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=855937


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## bar-d

Does anyone have an AR bolt handy enough to take some close up pics of? I still think I have a bolt problem, the extractor in particular. The top of the extractor does not line up with the top of the bolt. I think is was a snafu in manufacturing. The pics I have seen on the internet show the top of the bolt and extractor lining up. I think mine is a smidge short which does not allow the extractor claw to full engage the case rim. The bolt face and bottom of the extractor groove is misaligned also. If anyone can pm me some pics of yours, close up, I would sure appreciate it.


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## ebbs

Feel like posting any pics of yours and exactly what you're talking about so we can get an idea?

Here are some pics I found online for you to compare to...


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## bar-d

I tried to take pictures but I could not get them to focus that close. You see how the top of the extractor is even with the top of the lugs? Mine is not. It is about .016 below the lugs and it is not just because that part is shorter. The extractor claw itself is the same depth and the bottom of the exctactor groove that should line up with the bolt face is that much lower too. I don't thing it allows the extractor claw to seat all the way up against the case and that is part of the reason it is slipping off. A guy down the road has a Bushmaster that I know functions correctly. He will be back Tuesday and I am going to pull his bolt and check it out against mine. If it looks like the one you have pictured, I am going to swap his extractor out to my bolt and try that. I told Rguns from the beginning I thought it was a bolt problem and this will let me know for sure. Thanks for the pics ebbs.


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## ebbs

If it doesn't sit flush with the rest of the face then it's probably only riding up on the side of most of your rounds which you're right, would keep it from ejecting properly. Sounds either like a manufacturing or assembly defect to me. Will be glad to hear what the results are with the bolt from the Bushy.


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## bar-d

ebbs said:


> If it doesn't sit flush with the rest of the face then it's probably only riding up on the side of most of your rounds which you're right, would keep it from ejecting properly. Sounds either like a manufacturing or assembly defect to me. Will be glad to hear what the results are with the bolt from the Bushy.


Yeah, me too.


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## youngdon

Good luck Danny, Keep us posted.


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## wilded

I had a friend buy one of the gas piston things to replace the spring in his stock on the AR and it would not cycle so he put the spring back in and it worked fine. They can be touchy for sure.


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## headhunter25

Bar-d, can you take a picture of your bolt fully disassembled? Plus do you have a gun store close you can buy a spare extractor? You need to have a spare anyway and they are fairly cheap.

It could be that the hole for the bilt is not in the right spot or it's the other way around with the bolt. I'll give you a +1 on trying a different bolt. I bet once you change over it will work fine.

Chris C.


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## El Gato Loco

Not sure if these pics will add anything to the conversation or not, but I just snapped them from my AR. Click to enlarge for more detail.


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## ebbs

Chris Miller said:


> Not sure if these pics will add anything to the conversation or not, but I just snapped them from my AR. Click to enlarge for more detail.


Is it me or is that dandy looking chrome plated bolt off a gun you just sold? Let me guess, waiting for payment?


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## bar-d

headhunter25 said:


> Bar-d, can you take a picture of your bolt fully disassembled? Plus do you have a gun store close you can buy a spare extractor? You need to have a spare anyway and they are fairly cheap.
> 
> It could be that the hole for the bilt is not in the right spot or it's the other way around with the bolt. I'll give you a +1 on trying a different bolt. I bet once you change over it will work fine.
> 
> Chris C.


I tried taking pics Chris C. but could not get them to focus to where you could see them right. Living in the sticks I usually have to order parts from Midway as there are no suppliers around that I have found that handle spare AR parts. I do think it is an extactor issue. Thanks


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## bar-d

Chris Miller said:


> Not sure if these pics will add anything to the conversation or not, but I just snapped them from my AR. Click to enlarge for more detail.
> 
> View attachment 580
> 
> 
> View attachment 581
> 
> 
> View attachment 582
> 
> 
> View attachment 583


Good pics Chris M. The top of your extractor and lugs line up. They do not on my bolt. The extractor is about .116" below the top of the lugs. I don't think it is engaging the cartridge correctly. I will try my friend's extractor tomorrow and see if it solves the problem. Thanks.


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## El Gato Loco

ebbs said:


> Is it me or is that dandy looking chrome plated bolt off a gun you just sold? Let me guess, waiting for payment?


Yep... women and checks. I've learned to wait patiently (yea right) on both.


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## bar-d

Thanks for all your help guys. I am pretty sure the worst is behind me and things are going to get better from here on out (AR wise). I fired off an email to the owner of Rguns and let him know exactly how I felt about this whole mess and about me having to pay for and fix something that they should have taken care of. I expect either a nasty reply, offer to replace part (yeah, right) or being totally ignored. Either of the three is alright with me. Look guys, me with a functioning AR!


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## ebbs

Why are you shooting at yourself?


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## bar-d

ebbs said:


> Why are you shooting at yourself?


I've had about all my crap I am going to put up with!!!!!!!!!


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## youngdon

bar-d, I'm a little concerned, I think you need to go shoot something.


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## bar-d

I think you are right. I need to get away from me for a while.


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## hassell

bar-d said:


> I think you are right. I need to get away from me for a while.


 Its raining so hard right now it reminds me of the jungle days! You need a day of relaxation--- pop up here and I'll let you use the Duck Punt and float around the pastures!


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## youngdon

There you go bar-d get your passport out and head up there and punt some ducks.


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## bar-d

No offense but I would rather have the rain down here.


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## hassell

bar-d said:


> No offense but I would rather have the rain down here.


Yes I know whats it like down there, not measured in days or sometimes months, could even be years without a decent rain, if you ain't a comin, send some critters, they would enjoy the 3 ft. tall grass. aye!


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