# Zeroing Frustrations



## CannonCocker (Dec 20, 2012)

So today I went out to break in and zero in my new Tikka T3 Lite .243 and I had some interesting results. The first 20 rounds were used to break in the barrel so I wasn't too concerned for accuracy (plus it was cheap ammo). But when I tried the Hornady 100gr soft points at 100 yards I had some odd groups. Now, first off, it could be partly my fault as the shooter, but that would really surprise me as I could drill .5 MOA groups all day with my other rifle on a bipod. So anyway, I shoot the first round out of a clean bore and it impacts about 4 inches low and 2 inches right of my aim point. I take another shot and it impacts about 1.5 in high (which is where I had expected the first one to go). Another round and again, about 1.5 in high (keep in mind, no scope adjustments were made during this grouping). So, I am nearly positive that I didn't throw that first round, so can a shot from a clean bore really be that far off? I mean, I had heard of there being a slight disadvantage to shooting out of a clean barrel, but 5 inches at 100 yards!

Secondly, I never shot better than a 1 in group all day, which really disappointed me. I know that a Tikka is capable of much better accuracy, and I was getting really frustrated that I couldn't bring it in tighter than I was. So after I decided it was time to call it a day, I notice that the screw on my harris bipod had loosened up and the bipod was jiggling around a bit. Do you think that this could have contributed to my grouping problem? I mean, it seemed plenty stable when I was shooting and I was applying all the fundementals, but what else could it be?

Anyway, just putting this out there to see if anyone else had some odd groups while breaking in their rifle or shooting from a clean bore.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

I'd guess the first round was because of the oil or residue left from cleaning. The loose bi-pod COULD have been a factor. Whatscope do you have? Is it tight ? Where is the bipod attached to your rifle ? If it's on the fore end is the screw protruding through and hitting the barrel. Use a blockof wood and a piece of carpet or better yet a 8" piece of blue jean leg sew on both ends filled with cat litter as a sandbag and see how it shoots then. If this is a coyote /varmint gun shoot a lighter bullet that is made for varmints and or predators thy will react better on an animal where meat is not a consideration.

let us know what happens


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## alclark2 (Dec 6, 2012)

I'm interested in what people have to this post because I was having some issues the other day breaking in my new .22-250 Axis. I talked to my cousin that shoots all the time and he said when breaking in a barrel you should clean it every shot for the first 5-6 shots. Then every 5 shots clean it until you put about 2 boxes of ammo through it.

When I shot after cleaning every 6-8 shots my first would be 3-4 inches away from the following group. The method I used was to hit it with a bore brush and some Hoppes 9 and then run the bore snake through it twice to dry it out every 6-8 shots. I was not impressed with any of my groups. I started shooting at a target with various types of ammo just to break in the barrel and sight in the gun. When I went out to 100 yards and tried shooting 3, 3 shot groups with the different kinds of ammo I was disappointed. The worst ammo was the Winchester Varmint rounds from Walmart. They shot like 3-4 inches higher than the other ammo but probably because it was 40 grain. I still thought that was a lot at 100 yards. Second, the Remington PSP ammo I picked up at Walmart shot closer to where I expected it to impact. Still a loose group. Third the Hornaday Vmax 55 grain put together a tighter group but still not what I expected.

My situation is probably user error but I'm still interested what people say about breaking in a barrel. I'm going to give it a good cleaning and get a sandbag while using my bipod to see what it will do. Not trying to hijack the thread here but I think were in close to the same boat on this post.


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## CannonCocker (Dec 20, 2012)

youngdon said:


> I'd guess the first round was because of the oil or residue left from cleaning. The loose bi-pod COULD have been a factor. Whatscope do you have? Is it tight ? Where is the bipod attached to your rifle ? If it's on the fore end is the screw protruding through and hitting the barrel. Use a blockof wood and a piece of carpet or better yet a 8" piece of blue jean leg sew on both ends filled with cat litter as a sandbag and see how it shoots then. If this is a coyote /varmint gun shoot a lighter bullet that is made for varmints and or predators thy will react better on an animal where meat is not a consideration.
> 
> let us know what happens


Hey youngdon. There was definitely little to no residue left in the barrel when I shot. I usually run about 20-30 patches through it to ensure that there is no solvent or carbon left. My scope was tight as can be, and just to be sure I checked it a few times while I was shooting. The rifle came with sling studs attached so the screw hitting the barrel wouldn't be a factor.

I totally agree on the sandbag advice though. I was shooting from the roof of my truck (didn't want to lay in the snow) and my bipod would shift frequently. I think that, had I used a bag full of clothing, or cat litter, as you suggest, that probably would have helped. I'll have to remember that next time.

Also, the gun is for coyotes. The reason I settled on the 100 grain rounds was because the twist rate favors the heavier bullets. Also, I figure that as long as I stay away from the shoulders I should have a pretty small exit wound. I could be wrong, I've never shot a coyote with it yet (hopefully that will change soon!). From what I've read on PT, it sounds like the lighter loads are more popular for coyotes, but I've also heard that if you use a heavier round, the bullet may not be able to expand much before it exits the animal, thus leaving minimal damage to the pelt. Do you think this is true?


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Al that sand bag will be on te back end...correct ?

Breaking in a rifle barrel is a subject of debate, many feel it is not needed with todays manufacturing techniques and is a waste of ammo and will not make a difference. I believe it will in SOME barrels, maybe the one I have..maybe not. I'll take the time and "waste" the ammo.

On the other hand (we have four fingers and a thumb) it is not going to tighten a group by an inch at 100yds.


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## CannonCocker (Dec 20, 2012)

alclark2 said:


> I'm interested in what people have to this post because I was having some issues the other day breaking in my new .22-250 Axis. I talked to my cousin that shoots all the time and he said when breaking in a barrel you should clean it every shot for the first 5-6 shots. Then every 5 shots clean it until you put about 2 boxes of ammo through it.
> 
> When I shot after cleaning every 6-8 shots my first would be 3-4 inches away from the following group. The method I used was to hit it with a bore brush and some Hoppes 9 and then run the bore snake through it twice to dry it out every 6-8 shots. I was not impressed with any of my groups. I started shooting at a target with various types of ammo just to break in the barrel and sight in the gun. When I went out to 100 yards and tried shooting 3, 3 shot groups with the different kinds of ammo I was disappointed. The worst ammo was the Winchester Varmint rounds from Walmart. They shot like 3-4 inches higher than the other ammo but probably because it was 40 grain. I still thought that was a lot at 100 yards. Second, the Remington PSP ammo I picked up at Walmart shot closer to where I expected it to impact. Still a loose group. Third the Hornaday Vmax 55 grain put together a tighter group but still not what I expected.
> 
> My situation is probably user error but I'm still interested what people say about breaking in a barrel. I'm going to give it a good cleaning and get a sandbag while using my bipod to see what it will do. Not trying to hijack the thread here but I think were in close to the same boat on this post.


Yep, sounds like you've got the same problem as me. As I said, when I was breaking in the barrel (basically the same method you mentioned) my groups were very wide and whenever I'd make the proper adjustments to center the group on the target, the next group would be way off (after I punched the bore again). I'm going to go back and shoot it some more next week and see if my groups improve. I mean, realistically, it won't matter much for hunting purposes whether I've got a 1 MOA or a 0.25 MOA rifle, but I guess I'm just OCD about knowing what my gun can put out.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Just because the sling studs came installed does not mean they were installed correctly...check them ! Had I know you were shooting from the roof of your truck I'd have not commented at all, get on a SOLID base. From what i see on their site you have a.1-10" twist shoot a lighter bullet, if you can get them in your budget, a faster twist wil favor longer/heavier bullets. 100gr bullets are for deer and will punch a hole right through, a varmint bullet will almost explode as it enters the body expending all it's energy. You'll have a lot less runners with varmint/predator bullets. The lightest you'll find are 55gr and your 1-10 should stabilize them just fine..my 1-9 1/4 does but 105's are iffy, depending on the brand.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

CannonCocker said:


> Yep, sounds like you've got the same problem as me. As I said, when I was breaking in the barrel (basically the same method you mentioned) my groups were very wide and whenever I'd make the proper adjustments to center the group on the target, the next group would be way off (after I punched the bore again). I'm going to go back and shoot it some more next week and see if my groups improve. I mean, realistically, it won't matter much for hunting purposes whether I've got a 1 MOA or a 0.25 MOA rifle, but I guess I'm just OCD about knowing what my gun can put out.


OK if your group was wide and you adjusted and which direction would the next group be off ?? ..If the gun is off goingback to the range wityhout changing anything will likely result in the same frustrating experience. Use ONE brand of ammo ONE bullet weight rtry to keep the variables to a minimum. Check your scope... tight ?... what brand is it ?


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

After you make a scope adjustment take a shell and hit the top of the adjuster on the scope(hit it flush with the bottom of the shell) this will seat your Xhairs


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## alclark2 (Dec 6, 2012)

Sandbag would be in the back. I bought the Vanguard (I think thats the name) bipod that extends to 27" so I can sit down and shoot while hunting. Well, When the legs are fully retracted it seems to tall and uncomfortable at the range on the bench. That may be my problem. There are lot of factors that could be the problem in my case. I was freezing cold that day and I think it could of impacted my ability (not the gun) to shot a good group also. Excuses, Excuses. I'm no marksman by any means but my group with the hornaday was probably between 1 1/4- 1 1/2" with two about 5/8" apart. I could of thrown the other myself. I'll get out after a good cleaning and a better rest to shoot off and report back to see what results I get.

I was just wondering about that first shot after cleaning and theories on breaking in a barrel. That Hornaday was the last group I shot for the day. Maybe its just getting broke in? It probably has 40-45 rounds through it roughly. I hope it was just user error and I can tighten it up next time. I mostly shoot shotguns, handguns, and my muzzleloader so the longer range centerfire rifle thing is newer to me.


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## CannonCocker (Dec 20, 2012)

youngdon said:


> Just because the sling studs came installed does not mean they were installed correctly...check them ! Had I know you were shooting from the roof of your truck I'd have not commented at all, get on a SOLID base. From what i see on their site you have a.1-10" twist shoot a lighter bullet, if you can get them in your budget, a faster twist wil favor longer/heavier bullets. 100gr bullets are for deer and will punch a hole right through, a varmint bullet will almost explode as it enters the body expending all it's energy. You'll have a lot less runners with varmint/predator bullets. The lightest you'll find are 55gr and your 1-10 should stabilize them just fine..my 1-9 1/4 does but 105's are iffy, depending on the brand.


What, are you saying my truck isn't solid! Actually, it was just an improvisation because I forgot to bring my folding table.

I might try a box of 55gr next week and see how it does though. I've heard mixed reviews about them being used on coyotes. Plus, they do lose a lot of energy past 400 yards, not that I'd need to take a shot that far around here (lots of forest), but you never know.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

Put a sandbag up front too Al. Don't use the bipod for zeroing your scope. You want SOLID. Freezing cold don't help either. I won't express my opinion on bi-pods in general.......


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## CannonCocker (Dec 20, 2012)

youngdon, I've got a Nikon Buckmaster 6-18x40 Mildot, brand new. I do tap the scope as well after adjustments. As for ammo, I just didn't want to spend an extra $10 on the Hornady stuff for breaking it in. I just used Core-Lokts, 100gr.

I'm not a big bipod fan either, but it beats the hell out of using the sitting position like the Marine Corps taught me.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

CannonCocker said:


> What, are you saying my truck isn't solid! Actually, it was just an improvisation because I forgot to bring my folding table.
> 
> I might try a box of 55gr next week and see how it does though. I've heard mixed reviews about them being used on coyotes. Plus, they do lose a lot of energy past 400 yards, not that I'd need to take a shot that far around here (lots of forest), but you never know.


Unless you are driving a 60's model truck YEAH that's what i'm sayin' lol the roofs flex..if you have to shoot off the truck use the bed wall...with a sandbag.... or the tailgate lowered and a few blocks of wood under the forend with sandbags. if you don't have a old pair of jeans to make them goodwill has them for next to nothing. Cat litter ...just buy the cheapest you don't want to pee in it ...just use it as a rest.

Anyone who has told you that the 55gr doesn't work on coyotes is telling you stories or you need to hold their shooting ability suspect. I've shot them from all angles north south east and west, angling to and fro...


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

CannonCocker said:


> I'm not a big bipod fan either, but it beats the hell out of using the sitting position like the Marine Corps taught me.


Get or make a set of shooting sticks. sort of the same but much more adaptable and quicker to move...... You can thank me later......


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## Scotty D. (Feb 23, 2012)

Got a FAT Wrench???? Before I take a new rifle out, I see if the barrel is properly floated.. I take the stock completely off to make sure nothing's outta place...Use the FAT Wrench to tighten up all bolts to required inch/lbs (plus scope bases, rings)..Shoot enough to get the barrel heated up & check the free float again (while it's still warm)..... If there's a tight spot, I mark it & take it apart to sand/grind...

Sporter barrels heat up within 3 shots, in which case, tight spots play a big role in groups...Cold weather enhances this phenomena..

My .243 was giving me fits to the point that I was gonna sell it...Somebody told me they'd had the same prob, but they had the barrel frozen & it straightened up immediately...I froze my .243 & it's wonderful!!! Amazing how cryogenic treatment can help a new rifle... I freeze all my barrels (that aren't camo-dipped) b4 I take them to the range now...Best $50 accessory that I can buy...


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## Bigdrowdy1 (Jan 29, 2010)

Bob has pretty much covered it. Try different gr bullets and manufacturers. All my guns have their own preferences to what they shoot best. Some guns shoot best with slightly carboned barrels others like it dirty. When i am going hunting and my guns have been cleaned and put away for a while I like to check zero as well as foul the barrel some. Loose scopes yea they will jack things up as well. Check your barrel and see if it is free floated and not touching the stock in anyway. Slide a dollar bill between the barrel and stock. Shooting in really cold temps with a new gun can be challenging since the barrel will warm up and change impact as well. New guns as just that its like a new girl friend you got to find out what they like and dont like. You don't know how they were handled prior to you getting it. Even new guns can suffer from someone not caring or thinking about other things other than their job. it nothing seems to correct the issues you may try a different scope. Borrow one from some one see what happens. Keep telling us whats happening and what you find good luck!


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## CannonCocker (Dec 20, 2012)

I took my stock off and saw that there are contact marks from the 'ribs' on the inside of the stock. It appears that either the barrel is resting on this part of the stock or the barrel heated up during firing and made contact. I'm going to sand this portion down and see if it changes anything.


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## dwtrees (Mar 5, 2012)

If you reload, with some expermentation you will find the right combination that your gun likes, every one is different, just like a woman. Also I agree with Don, use a lighter bullet. I deceided on the 60 graim vmax for a good 300 to 400 yard knock down bullet, (after I practice some more at those ranges). The 60 gn vmax didn't exit when I had to make a finishing shot on a dog at 30 feet. I finished her in the back of the head and there was no exit at all. (My first shot was low and in the gut, my fault).

I found with my new savage 22-250 that it only liked a certain combination of powder and bullet. I tried a couple differant powder, bullet combinations after running about 30 shots through it to get the scope close and break in the barrel some. Then I tried anywhere from 32 grains of 4320 to 41 grains of 4350. All shots were using the 60 grain vmax bullet. Check the reloading books for the max load for any powder you use!!!! Any way I discovered the best group came from the 39 grain load of H4350 with the 60 grain vmax, all shot off sand bags on a concrete bench, 100 meters. The best was a 4 shot group that I could cover with a dime. So don't get to frustrated until you have tried some other combinations of bullets and powder.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

You can use a piece of dowel rod or a roll of coins to wrap your sand paper around to give you the right contour while sanding. Right now just work on getting a good group. It doesn't matter where they hit on the target for now. you can change that later.


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## Bigdrowdy1 (Jan 29, 2010)

+1 Bob on grouping. Dont miss with the scope setting just focus on grouping tightness then adjust accordingly.


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## sneakygroundbuzzard (Nov 1, 2012)

i own a TIKKA T3 .270

bought it this last fall

had a similar issue when sighting my scope in.

it came down to the barrel getting hot

i let it cool down and the next group was fine

i too was sighting in in cold weather,less than 15* that day

TIKKA does guarantee 1" or less moa out of the box,but i truely believe that the dont like a hot barrel

people tend to shoot faster,more frequently at the range than in the field

most people can go thru a box of shells in no time when at the range,but how fast do you go thru a box when hunting.

let that barrel cool down for several minutes between each shot and i would bet them groups improve


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## LeadHead (Feb 11, 2012)

sneakygroundbuzzard said:


> people tend to shoot faster,more frequently at the range than in the field
> 
> most people can go thru a box of shells in no time when at the range,but how fast do you go thru a box when hunting.


Then you apparently haven't heard what I've heard on opening day of deer season around here! My guess is that some guys go to the range and shoot once or twice simply to make sure their gun will feed properly, thus the reason for shooting up a box of ammo at one deer on opening day.

In all seriousness, I understand and generally agree with what you're saying here.


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## CannonCocker (Dec 20, 2012)

Okay, so I today I sanded down the interior of the stock where the barrel had been making contact forward of the receiver. It now it free floated completely. As well as that, I picked up some sandbags. Checked a couple of local gun stores and no one had any 55-60gr .243 in stock so I bought the only thing they had, 95gr Hornady Superperformance. So I get the 'range' (state forest), and start shooting. I start with the same 100gr ammo I was shooting the other day. I had cleaned the barrel thoroughly the night before and I go to take the first shot, from a very stable platform, and it doesn't even hit paper at 100 yds! I scratch my head and decide to take another, and it's right where it ought to be, about 1.5" high. Same thing with subsequent shots. I am now officially a believer that you shouldn't hunt with a clean bore. I finished up with the box of 100gr ammo, with mediocre results (2.5" group of 8 rounds). Once I switched over to the 95gr however, I was consistently shooting ~1" groups. Anyway, I'm satisfied with the results for now and I'm just going to stick with the 95gr rounds until I can get out and zero it in for something lighter.


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

That sounds like a plan.


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