# help discussion that we were having



## bgfireguy (Apr 12, 2011)

Hey guys, we were having a PM discussion about trying to help me and Chris brought it to our attention that I was being selfish (my words not his) and that this info would benefit alot of people So this is a transcript of what was said. At least the important stuff.

Here you go:

*bgfireguy*
Sent 31 December 2011 - 01:55 AM
Ok guys. First off I sincerely apologize in not doing this sooner but some really dumb people have decided that fire and houses should try to mix and see what happens.
Anyway hopefully ya'll can point out my flaws and weaknesses so that I can put down my first dog. So I will be using satellite, ground, and even an aerial photo the owner of this particular property had taken. I'm gonna go through my entire setup from before I leave my house till I decide to give up for the time being. So without further ado here we go. And I apologize but this is going to long winded probably. Sorry.
So before I even start getting dressed to leave the house the first thing I do is jump on the computer and check out the weather. I'm looking for wind direction especially and speed, cloud cover, and if I'm gonna try night time hunting, what moon phase it is. So after determining whether not the weather is going to work in my favor for the particular stand that I'm going to go to i.e. The wind will be in my face. I then get dressed in my camouflage clothing that I have made scent free. I prefer to wear head to toe clothing now this may be foolhardy or it may be the correct thing to do but I just feel it's gonna give me the best success. Once I'm done getting dressed I load up the rifle that I use which is a Stevens 200, and a Mossberg 500 in 12 gauge. For the Stevens 200 I use a Hornady 55 grain V. Max bullet and for the 12 gauge I use hevi-shot: dead coyote. I also set my bipod which is collapsible, to whichever height that I feel I need it that. I do all this to minimize the amount of noise I am making in the field thus giving the coyote one less chance of hearing me, and hopefully myself a better chance at putting one down. The other equipment that I use is a Mojo critter decoy, and a Foxpro FX3 caller loaded with about 16 sounds. For hand calls I have the heckling howler and prey blaster from Knight&Hale, Verminators Syco Tweety, and Quaker boys howler and cottontail distress.
OK so picture #1 is the Google earth photo of the hunting club where I was given permission to get coyotes. It is 443 acres large. I have it labeled with a little legend. The #1 is the lodge where I park and then hike back to my primary spot at the ¾ acre pond. If you need to see this photo closer I left the long/lat coordinates at the bottom so you can pull up satellite photos yourself. The aerial photo has the property lines marked out in white. The reason that I am hunting this spot is that all the members of this club have spotted coyotes here plus I have seen their tracks in the snow there (photo #3, #2, & 2a and in 2a that's my size 13.5 boot next to it). And where I set-up at was this massive print (photo #5 and that's my huge XXL size hand print next to it).
I hunt within the first 1½ hour of sunrise or the 1½ leading up to sunset and about 30 mins after the sun sets. So as I approach up the road to the pond I start walking slowly and scanning just in case I see one near or far out in the field. Always scanning. Also for this stand I only do it if the wind is blowing due west or south. I figure that with me walking north to the stand my scent blowing south is going towards anything I've already passed. So once I get to the area marked with the yellow star I sit down (photo #4 is a panorama pic of the area and it's the same as the yellow star in the overhead) wait about oh about 5-10 minutes and always scanning. First with my eyes, then my head (see don I learned something). Now at this point I take Corey's advice and put out a single howl. Sometimes I use hand callers and sometimes I use the FX3. After 5-10 minutes I put out a distress call (i.e. cottontail distress, chicken distress, or bird distress for 30-60 seconds and then silence for 2-3 mins. I repeat this about 3-4 times. If nothing comes I stay silent for 10-15 mins and then try a different sound. I will sit at this spot or any spot for at least an hour if not more easy.
So that's it guys. What are you seeing here? Ask any questions and please don't be afraid to be brutally honest. Any ideas on different calls. I will answer anything ASAP. And thanks again guys for taking pity on me and trying to help me with this.






 *youngdon*
Sent 31 December 2011 - 02:38 AM
No scented soaps? Dryer sheets? Shampoo?
Your spot looks to be in the open, although it's hard to say for sure. .
How often do you hunt this area? Are there other spots you hunt?

I've a feeling you are over hunting this area, give it a three week rest go find some new areas and try them. By setting up in that spot all the time you have educated those coyotes...probably with PHD's....They already have Masters degrees... they're born with them.
So give it a rest...while trying other areas. Mind your P's &Q's when you go out, you have the knowledge. You just need to hit a new spot. what do you have to lose? Right?
*bones44*
Sent 31 December 2011 - 03:31 AM
Definitely looks like good ground. I'm with Don. Not too hard to overhunt an area. Those yotes will travel the 400+ acres in an evening like a walk in the park. You may think you're setting up far enough away and you could be calling them over and over. Many of the guys on our Michigan forum have been out 20-25 sets already this year and have seen maybe one or two. These guys are good callers and hunters too. Yotes travel far and wide and with this less than stellar winter we've been having they've had it made as far as food goes. I've made 13 sets so far and have seen one fox. That's it. You're being too hard on yourself. All these guys on here that are so successful have alot of time in. Way more than you and I put together. I learn something new every day. Sounds like you work very hard at this and I commend you for being so tenacious. When I heal up (hope it won't take long) you have an open invitation to come and see me. Also, thank for the job you do! It's not an easy one to put your life on the line for everyone else every day. Let this be your "stress therapy" buddy!! Good luck!!
*Predatorhunter*
Sent 31 December 2011 - 04:56 AM
I agree with bones and YD in that it's easy to call over call a spot especially when you know that it holds coyotes and it obviously does by the looks of all the tracks.
Is this ground really flat?
When you walk in can you use cover all the way to your call sight so they can't see you approach?
If so instead of the howl have you tried just calling soft like on a rodent squeaker then going to the rabbit in distress?
Is this a deer hunting club?
I agree with bones to that the mild winter we have been having is not helping your chances they have food a plenty right now.
*sos1inmesa*
Sent 31 December 2011 - 09:51 AM
Everyone is right... the coyotes are smarter than heck. After the AZ heat went away, from September to the end of October, I was calling about 4 times a week, and was having the occasional coyote run into my calls, but I was having a hard time making my shots. Then in November, I couldn't call something in for the life of me. I fully believe as Don said that I had completely educated these coyotes. I normally spend 10 - 20 minutes a day on Google Earth looking for potentially good spots. These spots had good visibility, signs of coyotes, water sources, and a nice vantage point to hunt from. They were all within about 40 minutes of town. So who knows how many other predator hunters were hitting them as well. I thought I was being smart in the sense that I wouldn't return to any of these places for at least 3 weeks, but I don't think it mattered. I had been so many times, they just knew.
So after going out with Don, he said to ditch everything and get out further. So that's what I did. I finally got my first predator, the bobcat. Yeah, I had to travel almost an hour and half, but it was worth it. Second trip out using this advice of traveling far, we get a fox. 3rd trip out, we call in 3 coyotes (but we missed our shots, doh!). 4th trip far out, was a couple days ago with Don, and he put down 2. I really think this is your main issue. I'm sure some other areas you can refine (like your calls, everyone can do better), but I think you have enough knowledge, the determination, and the right equipment that you can make this happen on a more regular basis.
*bgfireguy*
Sent 31 December 2011 - 11:14 AM
Don- No on the scented soaps and other stuff. I've got a whole setup with scent free stuff from wildlife research. Scent free shampoo, laundry detergent, bar soap, I even got deodorant and etc. As far as where I sit down there is a road around the pond and then a band of CRP around the road. In that panorama photo it looks like it's out in the open but there's what I call a "finger" of CRP sticking out into the field. I sit just inside the CRP, that way I'm in "some" cover but I can still see about 220 degrees or so around me. And I've only been out here twice once on Christmas eve morning and once on the 29[sup]th[/sup] for an evening hunt. And yes on the hunts in other places. My house is about 2 miles away and I can hunt there, plus I've got tons of spots on the other side of the county about 30 miles away. I am going to give it a rest until about my birthday, which is Jan 26[sup]th[/sup] plus I am going to set out my trail camera around the pond. I would love to get some pics of those yotes running around and show ya'll.
Bones- 1. Oh yea I'll be there once you heal up and I sincerely appreciate the offer, And thanks for the thanks but without being rude I don't do it for a thank you. I know that may sound like me being an *[Excuse my language.... I have a limited vocabulary]*, but I equate it to someone who's been in the service. Don't know if you have, but if so you'll understand. And that's a huge 10-4 on the winter. That's why once we had more and a ¼" of snow I was out and looking for tracks.
Predator-Yes it is in the open field. You're from my neck of the woods so you know what it's like to have timber surrounding the crop fields. When I'm walking from the lodge all the fields are blocked the ditch/tree line that runs along the road. When I get to the pond I sneak through the CRP band which is about 15-20 yds wide. And I will try the start off into rodent instead of a howl. And no not a deer hunting club. Its exclusively upland birds, but the owner loves to "camera hunt" so hence all the blinds and stands. I'm trying to work on him to let me deer hunt though. And that's what I've been thinking about our winter too.
SOS- First off I am SO sorry on not getting to you right away bud. It's funny but because of our luck I think I look to you as one of my close confidants. And thanks for the kind words. As far as getting away from civilization I think you need to understand something about the east. And I don't know if you've ever visited out this way but you go out west from about the Mississippi river to well really California you can do that. Over here, Bones and Predator back me up on this, you go an hour and a half out of town and you just run into more towns. That, and the terrain (woods or farmland with pocket woods, or woods with pockets of crop fields), is one of the biggest reasons that I think everyone says it's so much harder to hunt eastern coyotes. Now I'm not making excuses for myself but these are the facts that I have to deal with.
So let me know if you wanna know anything else guys.
*showmeyote*
Sent 31 December 2011 - 11:17 AM
I am wondering the same thing as the rest of the crew. How many times have you tried this spot in the last 2 months? I feel the way you talk; you have the basics down pat! Calling sequence isn't rocket science and most any distress calls will produce a kill. Even the real distressed preys aren't perfect at making dinner bell sounds.
I feel you need more property to hunt. I rarely hunt the same property 3 times a month. I rotate my properties and feel I have a fresh place to hunt every week. If the land owner is in need for coyotes to be gone, I will do my best to a point to where I know, they have learned my tactics. Coyotes are very smart. Don't be afraid to ask a landowner for permission, I mean the worst that could happen is them saying NO. Go to the next piece of property. I will include a large map of the area I hunt, and maybe give you an idea of what kind of hunting range I have. Honestly, I think it's dumb luck for you thus far. I think you have the right knowledge and the right mind set to get one in. maybe just over hunting.
I can't figure out how to attach my Google image it doesn't matter. I have maybe 20,000 acres to hunt. It takes time to get that much ground, but new property seems to always pay off.

*bgfireguy*
Sent 31 December 2011 - 11:26 AM
Hey SMY I think that's all it is dumb luck. I do have access to more land west of me and I totally agree on asking. That's been my mentality all my life. I'm trying to pick up more land all over but it's really hard getting people to let you. They're so afraid of being sued that no one will let me. Even after I sign a waiver and release of liability forms for them. So I'm gonna start rotating them like you said for the ones that I do have access to.
*sos1inmesa*
Sent 31 December 2011 - 01:51 PM
I totally agree with Showmeyote, your there with the knowledge and could probably ace any coyote written test. I believe your dry spell is mainly an issue with you finding the right location.
From your description, I now understand a little better how your area is different than where I'm at, so if there really isn't "a far out of town" area for you to hunt, then the key is really to just hit new areas. Just don't go back to any spot you've ever hunted and you have just raised your odds greatly! Last week (after 3 consecutive trips of calling in a lot of stuff... 1 bobcat, 3 coyotes, and a fox). I happened to be out in the desert zeroing in my cousins rifle and thought I'd try some calling on 2 stands in my "old areas". Guess what, nothing came in!!! They are just too educated. I know they are there, they are just too smart.
If towns just all bleed into one another around there, just mix up your areas. There's no guarantee's you'll get something at the first new spot you hit, but I promise your odds have just gone up by ditching your old spots. Even though all those areas I used to hit are close to where I live and very convenient and fast to drive to... I'd rather skip the day hunting and go further out where the odds are better. Just my 2 cents and I hope the best for you.
Remember there is a 10,000 hour rule to become a professional at anything, but doesn't mean the success can't come sooner. Keep going out and putting in the time, and in 10 years from now when you're known as the infamous Coyote Hunter, you'll look back at these times and laugh.

*Predatorhunter*
Sent 31 December 2011 - 07:33 PM
I keep coming back to the photos to look at them something is bothering me it looks like from the aerial photo that you walk through a good portion of the 400+ acres to get to the pond? I think that I would try to break the property down and maybe even get 2 sets out of it. From the aerial photo it looks like there are 2 ditch lines or CRP that run to the east that you walk by on your way to the pond maybe try to walk down one of them (when the wind is right) and try to call that bigger timber to the east. Then I would try to find a spot to call to the pond not going all the way to it. But you ought to be able to call from one of these ditches with a north or northeast wind. I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you walk through a good portion of that property then how do you know you aren't walking by them and or they are seeing you walk by and then they hear the sounds and associate that sound with you? I don't know just a couple of thoughts I had when I heard that you have only called it twice. It's either that or just dumb luck like SMY said. I think that everyone is right when they say that you have the knowledge and you for sure have the drive. Stick with it and maybe try to call from a different spot on the property (like one I suggested) LOL or maybe a new property all together and change up your sound if you try the same property.
*youngdon*
Sent 31 December 2011 - 09:47 PM
Is it possible someone else is calling this area? Even calling from a 1/2 mile away they may be helping to mess you up.
*bones44*
Sent 01 January 2012 - 04:00 AM
I'm not sure if you guys experience this but yesterday after several sets on 3 different farms my partner and I saw zero. These farms had good sign in September and October. Only one had any sign of yotes at all. That one held all the deer in the area. Anywhere there were croplands plowed under there showed no yote signs. Have never seen this as all the properties hold a lot of small game. I do know they're omnivores, could be part of it. With no snow on the ground it's been real strange. That's something else to factor in maybe this year Ben. If they're following the herds time to put the push on and definitely ask like SMY said for farmers to open up. I had one stop me yesterday to tell me to go ahead and set up when I can on his 600 acres. He hates yotes and geese. Bonus!!
*bgfireguy*
Sent 01 January 2012 - 01:04 PM
Predator-Yea I've thought about that too. It's just that the members have seen the most activity by the pond so that's where I started. In the photo below is where I think I may also try.
Don- nope I'm the only one on this portion of the county. I've asked all the farmers within 10 miles and I'm the only one unless someone is out poaching their grounds. But most of them deer hunt and don't want me out there scaring the deer.
Bones- Yea I'm thinking the no snow that we're dealing with is maybe contributing to killing my efforts. But as far as them being out there, I've got at least 4 different groups, not pairs, groups that the DNR biologist has identified within howling of my house. (the largest hunting area in the state is across from this property and I get to hunt it too after Jan 15.) He works out of the office once a week so I try to "accidently" bump into him every week.
*youngdon*
Sent 01 January 2012 - 01:10 PM
So when deer is over can you hunt them?
*bgfireguy*
Sent 01 January 2012 - 02:05 PM
I don't know I'm trying to get them to let me but its hard going. everyone is so reluctant because they're so afraid of getting sued if something happens, but I am trying though
*youngdon*
Sent 01 January 2012 - 02:11 PM
I guess I can see why they are all scared heck you can't even sell a vacated senate seat there without getting crapped on.
*youngdon*
Sent 01 January 2012 - 02:22 PM
Seriously Ben next time you have a chance to hunt just go... go away from your normal areas. Be smart use the wind and cover to your advantage but don't over think it. Once you have been on stand and done your calling ask yourself "what could I have done differently" and move to the next stand.
*Predatorhunter*
Sent 01 January 2012 - 08:49 PM
Sorry it took me so long to get back to you I have been out chasing meat for the freezer all day (Illinois doe only gun season). I agree try some new area if you got it I just wouldn't walk through the property right before you call it.
Do you have any old roads that aren't used anymore like dirt roads? I've had pretty good luck next to dirt roads. (park at one end and then walk up to a field & start Calling from the fence line by the dirt road) kinda thing.
Do you have a lot of farmers around there with cattle?
I've never meet a farmer with cattle around here that come this time of year ever had use for a coyote. (It's calving season) I would imagine that if you do that you are asking them?
* youngdon*

Sent 01 January 2012 - 11:29 PM
Remember now , you showing up to hang a camera or check the card or batteries is about the same as being there to hunt...Not quite the same but you are reminding them of your presence. Wait till after you hunt on your birthday to hang a camera. you'll already be there in their space.
* bgfireguy*

Sent 01 January 2012 - 11:31 PM
Well Talked to the owner today and he has a group going into hunt tomorrow ringnecks so I was gonna wait that's a great point don. Maybe I'll go tomorrow while they're out there and use them as cover?
* youngdon*

* Sent 01 January 2012 - 11:36 PM*

* Good idea. I'd still look for a different place to set up though. I think anything (distress sounds and such) coming from that area are all attributed to you. Them yotes don't know you by name...but they do know you.*

* Predatorhunter*

Sent 01 January 2012 - 11:40 PM
I agree with YD they defiantly know you! Do you have a lot of farmers with cattle up there?
* bgfireguy*

Sent 01 January 2012 - 11:40 PM
set up the cameras or set up to hunt?
* youngdon*

Sent 01 January 2012 - 11:45 PM
I'd set up to hunt somewhere else....
* bgfireguy*

* Sent 02 January 2012, 12:31 PM*

Yea I'm going here in about twenty minutes to set the cameras up while those other guys are in the area hunting, but I'm going cross county tonight or tomorrow to hunt.
* youngdon*

Sent 02 January 2012, 12:34 PM
Have fun...And good luck! I'd wait till tomorrow then you have all day, and they have another day to settle down from the weekend. I rarely go out on Monday for that very reason.
* Chris Miller*

Sent 02 January 2012, 11:05 PM
I guess I'll ruin all the fun and say that it's disappointing to see one of the sites most useful posts being shared here behind closed doors. I think a LOT of guys could benefit from this information.
Anyway... with that aside, I can only echo what the other guys have already said. When I got into this I thought it sucked because everyone had better luck than me. Everyone was stacking up the predators, and the DVD's I was watching included "over 30 kills", etc. It took me a while to learn their secret.....
They spent a LOT of time scouting, and then they called, called, and called some more. The DVD's I learned were a year or sometimes TWO of work. I learned that guys who seemed to be posting new kills every week were out there hunting for hours.... sometimes every day!
Just keep at it and don't give up. Get more land, do more scouting and spend more time in the field. Eventually you'll connect and then it's a learning experience every time you go out.
Don't get discouraged!

So there it is I hope others benefit from this as well.


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## bones44 (Jan 7, 2011)

Dang buddy you've been busy ! LOL Looks good. Glad you got it patched in.


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## bgfireguy (Apr 12, 2011)

Yea I would want to be "selfish" now would I???







Just kidding chris!


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## bones44 (Jan 7, 2011)

We all know that Ben.


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## El Gato Loco (Jan 15, 2010)

bgfireguy said:


> Yea I would want to be "selfish" now would I???
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Was I a little hard on you? lol


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## bgfireguy (Apr 12, 2011)

*sniff* maybe..................lol


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## sos1inmesa (May 11, 2011)

We are all routin for ya buddy!


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## youngdon (Mar 10, 2010)

bgfireguy said:


> *sniff* maybe..................lol


You'll do it Ben don't fret over it.....


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