# 223 Ruined ANOTHER PELT! WHAT IS THE DEAL!



## Furtaker

I killed this cat today and my 223 is blowing them up! I have tried everything in bullets and still no luck! I guess I'll have to go back to the 22mag to keep a fur this year!


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## On a call

I would...ever think of going to a .222 ?


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## Furtaker

sorry right side up! Lol


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## Furtaker

I have have a 222 but with same results most the time. I wouldnt mind trying a 22 hornet though. I will trade someone a 22 hornet for my 222.


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## On a call

I shoot fox with my .222 mag and have little problems so I just throw that out there. but if you have one and have the same results ?? Shotgun ? or are your shots long ?


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## youngdon

Try a standard sp bullet the jackets are usually thicker. I assume you are reloading and would bet they are at or near maximum velocity. Try slowing it down a bit, accuracy will probably not suffer much if anything, down range trajectory will drop a bit but your hides may well stay intact.


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## Furtaker

I will try to slow them down. I'm not sure what to think. FMJ should have small whole in and out but it's not.


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## Furtaker

oac is the .222 mag smaller than the 222 remington?


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## youngdon

Furtaker said:


> oac is the .222 mag smaller than the 222 remington?


Do you mean case wise?

That's what you're blowing up? FMJ's ?


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## On a call

Actually it is a bit hotter than the .223 however I shoot it light and those were my results. I have never had a fox explode and have killed most every yote I hit. Expansion is slow.

YD has good info on loading and would recomemd talking with him on your .223 or better...your .222 I think has a better chance of doing what you want. Even those .22 hornets are hot little rounds.

What were your results with a .22 mag ? perhaps that would be a best choice ?


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## youngdon

The 222 rem is a tad shorter the diameter is the same and so are the bullet diameters. I would assume without looking that the shoulder has been moved a bit so as to prevent chambering the wrong round.


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## El Gato Loco

Never had a factory 223, 50 grain vmax exit on an animal. I would never shoot an FMJ at anything though. Those are meant to pass right thru with minimal internal damage. That's why they're the only bullet approved for military use. I prefer a round that slips right in, and then explodes and never comes out. On almost every predator I have killed, there has been no exit wound, and an entry wound too small to even find. I shoot nothing but factory loads right now though... and they work well.


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## ebbs

X2 on Chris's Vmax philosophy. An explosive lightweight ballistic tip has always treated me well. Especially on raccoons


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## El Gato Loco

This is not a bragging post, so please don't take it that way. Just showing you what these Fiocchi 223 50 grain vmax's do to cats. The bloody one is only bloody because I laid her in the blood from her mouth. You literally can not find an entry wound on these cats with this round and of course there is no exit. I betcha I could convince most anyone in the field that I have just trapped them.

I LOVE it and if I do start reloading for the .223, i'll try my best to replicate it.


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## Furtaker

I'm using the FMJ and it is blowing them to pieces. The 22 mag is very gentle but a long ranges the yotes cant be got very well. It has a very bad bullet drop.


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## Furtaker

How about barrel twist? Does this change anything?


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## Furtaker

I'll try that too! thanks all of you for the input. Bad rounds make me sick on a $50 cat hide.


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## youngdon

Something is wrong if the FMJ's are exploding that way. When I suggested a SP bullet I assumed that you were using a plastic tipped or hollow point round. Sorry for the assumption on my part. FMJ's are not legal for use here in AZ. I also agree with the v-max or Nosler Ballistic tip choice.


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## ebbs

Furtaker said:


> How about barrel twist? Does this change anything?


Barrel twist that doesn't match will only cause accuracy issues, not terminal bullet issues. Unless of course there are drastic velocity discrepancies between rounds. Then things can get jacked up. But if you're shooting a 223 with a 1-9" (ish) twist you should be totally find. Chris is right though, you can get factory loaded ammo with that Vmax for cheap. I shoot HSM with the same bullet and the price just went to $17.99 for 50. Which is insanely cheap for quality hunting ammo. It comes in a bright orange box and my Remington R15 shoots sub MOA groups at 100 yards with it.


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## On a call

Hey Chris, At what yardages were you shooting those cats at ? Many of the fox I had shoot with my .222 mag were 40 - 300 yards with the same type of result. I never had a ripped up animal.


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## El Gato Loco

On a call said:


> Hey Chris, At what yardages were you shooting those cats at ? Many of the fox I had shoot with my .222 mag were 40 - 300 yards with the same type of result. I never had a ripped up animal.


2 of them were 50-60 yard shots and the one was about 10 feet. Go back and read my hunting logs and those numbers wont match up at all and i'll look like a liar but that's pretty close.









I've shot a bunch of coyotes from 5 yards out to 150 yards and had the same result. Very tiny entry, and never an exit. I did shoot one high on the spine though and it opened him up pretty good because it hit bone. I didn't complain though, figured it was just a head start on the skinning job. lol









The exit wound is what destroys em. If you insist on shooting FMJ, just buy a nice sewing needle.


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## Furtaker

*That maybe my main problem!* I'm too dang close when I shoot! That cat was only about 25 yards or less. The greys I blow up are less than 20 so I started shot gunning them. I didnt have a shot gun with me this time. If I would have shot her when I first saw her at 65 yards I prob. would have been alright.


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## El Gato Loco

You shooting an AR? Looks like a gut shot so i'm guessing you were shooting an AR, and probably put the cross hairs on her chest?

The FMJ is still your problem though. Move to a hunting bullet and you'll be happy. You're using range ammo for hunting.


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## ebbs

> the fmj is still your problem though. Move to a hunting bullet and you'll be happy. You're using range ammo for hunting.


bingo was his name-o!


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## On a call

Well tell me Chris...if he is using FMJ...those would just pass through, correct ? Corelock or the likes will expand and cause internal damage but if there is too much punch there will be blow out on the back side, correct ?

So he is using a soft tip but at close range, correct ?


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## El Gato Loco

On a call said:


> Well tell me Chris...if he is using FMJ...those would just pass through, correct ? Corelock or the likes will expand and cause internal damage but if there is too much punch there will be blow out on the back side, correct ?
> 
> So he is using a soft tip but at close range, correct ?


He said FMJ... not a soft point. Maybe I misread? A FMJ is going to pass right thru and the exit wound is always bigger than the entry. With fur hunting I figure we're trying hard not to hit bone. If you wanna shoot an FMJ, you've doubled your chances of hitting bone. My fragmenting round is stopping in the chest cavity and doing it's business there. Your FMJ is going on to hit more bone, and then going on to kill a neighbor or two.









At 10 feet i've shot a cat in the chest and it didn't do any damage and I couldn't even find the entry wound. But I also hit a raccoon in the gut (was learning how to shoot at that distance with an ar) with the same round, at the same distance and every internal organ was immediately relocated to the outside. Didn't stop him from fighting, but that's what happened.









I still prefer a fragmenting round. It's like tossing a mini grenade into their chest. It does all the damage where it needs to - on the inside.


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## ebbs

IMO it's a speed thing, Brian. 55 grain factory FMJs are intended to run about 2600-2800 fps out of a 16" military carbine. They don't push them as fast and they're more mild mannered. Take one of those in a civilian 223 running roughly 3200+ fps being used for hunting purposes on a soft skinned critter and you've got the makings of a more volatile bullet ESPECIALLY at close range. JMHO though I don't have anything entirely factual to back it up. What I'm doing here is developing a *ballistic common sense*. Feel free to use that in the future.


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## youngdon

ebbs said:


> IMO it's a speed thing, Brian. 55 grain factory FMJs are intended to run about 2600-2800 fps out of a 16" military carbine. They don't push them as fast and they're more mild mannered. Take one of those in a civilian 223 running roughly 3200+ fps being used for hunting purposes on a soft skinned critter and you've got the makings of a more volatile bullet ESPECIALLY at close range. JMHO though I don't have anything entirely factual to back it up. What I'm doing here is developing a *ballistic common sense*. Feel free to use that in the future.


Well said ebbs. ALL bullets are designed to be used within a velocity range, and I agree that he has most likely exceeded the velocity for which the bullet was designed, not to mention the use it was designed for.


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## El Gato Loco

FMJ....


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## ebbs

Chris Miller said:


> FMJ....


Bahahahaha! I was trying to imagine some other bullets that would be even more disappointing, as in some rounds that could just absolutely expand and explode a critter that size. The Nosler Partition comes to mind, Hornady Interlock, and Sierra Game King. While it would eliminate any possibility of keeping the pelt, it sure would be funny to see! LOL, kind of like what a frag round does to a prairie dog!

PS. Chris I lied. I tried to go to bed. Buuuuuttttttt you see how that turned out.


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## poe

has anyone tried one of the 17s on cats I would think the hmr should knockem down cold at shorter ranges or you could try a 17 remington it has a little more punch and if you do your part will work just fine on a coyote. I have never tried one on cats as i don't have them in my area but just something to think about


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## vincmm

Are you using FMJ or the red ballistic tips?
The red tip'd 223's would't do that...I shot a ground hog using the ballistic tip bullet no exit wound, from probably 30yrds.
The ballistic tips are designed to go in and basically frag on the inside.

Course whatever you choose be sure to sight the rifle in with those rounds......

FMJ figure will go in size of pencil exit wound with be siaze of half dollar...those are made for destroying flesh and tissue.


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## Helmet_S

I would say to either find a bullet like the vmax that will not come out the other side or go to a target hollow point that won't expand as fast and see if it will just pass through without leaving a big hole. Obviously you will have to make your shot count but it should do the trick just as well. I think the better option would be for a bullet that will deliver all of it's force to the animal and not exit the other side like a vmax.


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## hassell

Furtaker said:


> I'll try that too! thanks all of you for the input. Bad rounds make me sick on a $50 cat hide.


 Wow you're only getting $50 for a cat hide, add a zero on that and thats what the trappers are getting up here.


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## On a call

hassell said:


> Wow you're only getting $50 for a cat hide, add a zero on that and thats what the trappers are getting up here.


Wow you r getting 500 for a cat ? How about other critters ??


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## youngdon

hassell said:


> Wow you're only getting $50 for a cat hide, add a zero on that and thats what the trappers are getting up here.


 Wow! That's a good price.


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## showmeyote

My 50g V-max out my 250 have some pop! I toasted a coyote pelt awhile back by poor shot placement on my part. To high and to far forward.


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## trappertommy

A 22 hornet with a 40 a-max will do the job and no exit hole.. if you load your own 12 grains of varget and will kill easy at 200 yds the . ive never had one come out even on a fox. its great for saveing the hide. but has nock down power


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## lepcur

Maybe go to walmart and get a 40 count box of winchester white box, they're a 45 grain hp at 3600 fps and try them, they cost about 30 bucks out the door and I shoot them in my 22-250 and the 223 and have had no exits at all on cat or yotes, haven't shot a fox with them. Mike


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## youngdon

First thing I would do is try slowing my loads down a bit. I don't think you can easily find data to slow a .223 to hornet speeds but you ought to be able to slow it down some.


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## ReidRH

I hope to try my .17 on one shortly!! Ill let ya know how that turns out!


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