# Let's talk welding...



## El Gato Loco

Hey all,

With the upcoming off-grid move, I am having to take on a few additional skill sets i've never had experience with before. One being welding.

I've had a good discussion with a few guys out on Facebook but I wanted to get some additional discussion going here for good measure. Every little bit of info I can pickup will help me at this point.

Basically I am going to be buying a welder to do a lot of outdoor projects at the homestead. I am building a wrap around porch, a couple of large carports, some fence corners, rebar & I-beams for concrete work, etc. I will have no access to electricity.

From what I have gathered, I should be looking at a welder / generator combo. I think I have it narrowed down to either a Miller Bobcat 225 (http://www.millerwelds.com/products/enginedriven/product.php?model=M90334) or Lincoln Ranger 225 (http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/Equipment/Pages/product.aspx?product=K2857-1(LincolnElectric)). I believe these would both be considered "stick welders" although it looks as though you can do other types of welding with them too?

That's about as far as i've gotten. I really know very little about welding and i'm hoping to find someone local who can walk me thru some things. I've got an ad up on craigslist and have got a few replies so far - just need to setup a time. I also don't have the extra cash to buy either of those welders new so I am hoping to get a good deal on a used one.

Is there anything I should look for when buying a used welder? Why are so many sold without leads?

Any tips / tricks / advice you might have would be much appreciated. No matter how small the detail, it's probably info I could use.

Chris


----------



## azpredatorhunter

Chris, Lincoln have been around for a long time. Miller too. I have used a gas powered one (miller) a stick welder should be fine for general use. You can get a small portable MIG that will go on to the stick welders +pos. lead but you don't need one to weld i-beams, angle-iron etc. The MIG will weld thinner metal ex: 18-20ga., 1/8" up to 1/4" the stick welder is for thicker stuff ex: 1/4 on up. Don't buy one that looks beat to hell. Try to get one someone used at home or on a small project. Not one that was used for work. As far as the leads go, I am not sure why they wouldn't be with the welder. They are copper so they are $$$... I would go with a Miller JMO. Feel free to ask, I have worked as a welder for a few years and my son is now and going to school to get a welding cert.


----------



## azpredatorhunter

I can teach you how to weld, it's easy. The first thing is do you wear contacts? You can't wear contacts and weld unless you want to melt them to your eyeballs! That goes for anyone around you. And make sure your kids don't watch you weld and they will. If you get a weld flash slice a potato and rub it on your eyeball, it helps to stop the pain, something to do with the starch. A weld flash/ burn feels like someone poured two cups of sand in your eyes and it no fun. It will go away but it's not good for your eyes...


----------



## knapper

I have a scare on my retina from welding arc, it happened and I didn't know how I got it. If not taken care of it can lead to mackular degertaion and they have stuff to help you out. It is not related to age as the other form of this is. So be careful when welding.


----------



## youngdon

I wouldn't buy a combo welder generator, I'd buy one of each, that way you can use the generator to run your hair dryer.....(pause for giggles) or your welder. Leads aren't always sold with welders (industrial) so people keep them for their new machine or to extend the new ones they bought. For heavier steel a stick welder will work well. If you do buy a wire welder (MIG) you'll need to run fluxcore wire or have bottled gas. Wire welders have moving parts , to feed the wire and a nozzle and tips that need to be kept clean. A stick welder has no moving parts other than switches. Look for a A/C< D/C machine.


----------



## hassell

I've used the Miller more then that model of Lincoln, for the thousand less for the Lincoln I'd go for that as the money could be used for leads( price of copper is why they are not included) or whatever and it will do the same as the miller.Kohler engines are alright also. Anybody around you when you're welding will be protected from arc flash by wearing safety glasses(unless its bounced off and can get in behind the lenses)


----------



## youngdon

And buy a flipdown helmet...none of those handheld shields.... You'll need your other hand to hold things in place and some welders gloves...may as well buy more than one pair. You'll appreciate the long cuffs as they will protect your artwork. Wire brushes..buy a small grinder that you can put a brush on.


----------



## hassell

HA !! Thanks YD, forgot about all the extras. Chipping hammer, vice grips, soap stone, c-clamps, 2 foot square, tri square, chalk line, torpedo and 2 ft. level with the magnet, chop saw, face shield if not using the helmet, beanie( to save the little bit of hair thats left ) I'm sure the list will get longer.


----------



## azpredatorhunter

Don the combo has outlets for 120V if I remember there is two or more!


----------



## youngdon

The miller weighs 485lbs... The Lincoln is 514 They will require a trailer of their own. I really don't think you'll need a welder that big.


----------



## azpredatorhunter

knapper said:


> I have a scare on my retina from welding arc, it happened and I didn't know how I got it. If not taken care of it can lead to mackular degertaion and they have stuff to help you out. It is not related to age as the other form of this is. So be careful when welding.


 knapper I have something on my eye from welding but I can't remember what it is called. I don't think he is going to be welding every day like I was. But it is a good point. A good hood and the right filters are a must. And some plywood to block others from looking at the arc, for some reason people like to look at it. But when they wake up in the middle of the night with the feeling of a cup of sand in their eyes it usually breaks them of that habit. I got some bad ones from the reflection off of white bricks in a boiler I was working on. A white shirt will do it to.


----------



## youngdon

I once got the backs of my ears sunburnt from working inside a stainless tank....Luckily i had long hair....


----------



## azpredatorhunter

youngdon said:


> The miller weighs 485lbs... The Lincoln is 514 They will require a trailer of their own. I really don't think you'll need a welder that big.


I didn't think the one I was using was that heavy! It had wheels and a eyelet to pick it up. I am sure he will have a chain hoist or old school block and tackle he is going off the grid. It would a good back up for power to, you can run a chop saw and a grinder off it...


----------



## knapper

+1 on the long sleeved shirt and long leather welding gloves


----------



## azpredatorhunter

Chris are you going to say anything?


----------



## azpredatorhunter

Knapper, did you get your eye checked out?


----------



## El Gato Loco

azpredator said:


> Chris are you going to say anything?


Yea.... BUURRRRRP!


----------



## youngdon

LOL Hey... you got some on you !


----------



## poe

for what you are doing I would just go with the stick welder. A stick welder is kind of the one welder that you can do everything with. A mig or tig welder is also handy to have but really not needed. I think I would save the money you would spend on a mig and get a good torch.


----------



## bones44

Great ideas from everyone. I would go with a stick welder too. Once you get the hang of it you can weld pretty much anything. Unless you're doing little projects the mig or tig are not a necessity. I too have had a piece of metal that burned into my retina when I was 18 and have been noticing more and more my left eye has really progressed downward. The doc told me it may affect my vision later on ( had to drill it out of my eye) If you can get a helmet that automatically darkens. They work great and will save your eyes !


----------



## Bigdrowdy1

Go with a stick welder for sure. Different rods for different thicknesses and type material welding. YD hit it on the head your going of grid and chasing moving broken or worn out parts will be a pain. Stick is easier to learn in my opinion. That is what I learned with on the farm. Combo welder is basically a gas or diesel powered welder anyway since you have to generate electricity for the welder to work. Stay with either the Lincoln or Miller welder don't go cheapo it wont pay when your in the middle of no where. The concept is simple you are melting the pieces of steel together to bond. The current is melting the two pieces while blending the third piece(the rod) as a bonding unit.While you still in town go by a welding shop and ask to watch them with a hood on. Go rent a small welder and practice what you see. I dont see you welding structures for bridges or cat walks for people to walk on so your welding aint gonna need to be perfect. It will get better as you go. 7018 is the most common rod used for most mild steels. Rod thickness determines heat and penetration for the thickness of the metal your welding. Protect your eyes and anyone else around. Burnt eyes hurt starting around midnight and they only get worst until daylight comes then it seems to fade away. When in doubt ask you have the perfect phone with PT. if you want pm me and I can explain better if interested.


----------



## azpredatorhunter

Chris Miller said:


> Yea.... BUURRRRRP!


 Snap out of it. Azpredatorhunter PRO-STAFF WELDER...


----------



## knapper

azpredator said:


> Knapper, did you get your eye checked out?


That was how I found out about it, that was this year.


----------



## knapper

Be sure that you get one that will weld dc if you are using 7018, 7014 is for most ac welders. After getting a wire feed one I would be hard pressed to go back to stick one and have to chip the slag off. I have drawn up plans for trailers and build them. O would say I did a rather good job. Espscily with the more recent ones. I have also built a rock saw that works ok for now and needs to be fine tuned.


----------



## gentlemanJ

man u guys sure got ur act together on this subject. I have been welding since the 8th grade n all yall on point. Lil things that i like to do, is use alot of sun screen to protect from burning ur skin. Also before u purchace the welder, find someone u trust that can weld ,to go with u and actually use the product u intend to buy. A seccond opinion always helpful. If you get a stick, remember to keep them out of the weather and in something airtight. When doing finer projects tac-weld in spots all over and re-measure before u lay down long beads, metals tend to draw up and sometimes have a mind of ther own. Have a decent grinder on hand. Thinner materials reguire cooling time, water on rags helps (example -installing quaterpanels in that old plymouth). But the best advice i can give is practice,practice, n more practice. And remember gravity,cause it will burn if you dont. B safe above all else.


----------



## Daamud

Watch your feet, shirt cuffs, ears, collars ect. ect. Sparks and melted metal hurt.

Rivet some leather strips to the edge of the welding lid, with a long goat-tee looking strip in front. Helps reduce light glare and sparks inside.

Keep an eye on your pets. They like to watch also.


----------



## hassell

Daamud said:


> Watch your feet, shirt cuffs, ears, collars ect. ect. Sparks and melted metal hurt.
> 
> Rivet some leather strips to the edge of the welding lid, with a long goat-tee looking strip in front. Helps reduce light glare and sparks inside.
> 
> Keep an eye on your pets. They like to watch also.


 When I was welding up rock guards for an excavator the owners dogs would lay in the shop all day and watch me weld, I was concerned But he wasn't-- said they have been doing it for years Didn't seem to bother them.


----------



## hassell

This is quite the topic as I can see there are a pile of Members that weld or have welded, the advice will go on forever HA !!!


----------



## azpredatorhunter

gentlemanJ said:


> man u guys sure got ur act together on this subject. I have been welding since the 8th grade n all yall on point. Lil things that i like to do, is use alot of sun screen to protect from burning ur skin. Also before u purchace the welder, find someone u trust that can weld ,to go with u and actually use the product u intend to buy. A seccond opinion always helpful. If you get a stick, remember to keep them out of the weather and in something airtight. When doing finer projects tac-weld in spots all over and re-measure before u lay down long beads, metals tend to draw up and sometimes have a mind of ther own. Have a decent grinder on hand. Thinner materials reguire cooling time, water on rags helps (example -installing quaterpanels in that old plymouth). But the best advice i can give is practice,practice, n more practice. And remember gravity,cause it will burn if you dont. B safe above all else.


He is talking about the welding rods Chris, keep your rods in a plastic holder with a o-ring. They sell them at any welding supply store. Only open one pkg.of welding rods as needed. If you need to fill in a gap when welding and you don't have any extra steel you can use a welding rod just take a hammer and hit the rod to knock off the flux.


----------



## Tracker401

If I were in your spot, I think I'd lean toward the Lincoln. As a general rule I like the Millers better, but the pipe line guys swear by the Lincoln, and they're tough. See if you can find a deal on an older Lincoln SA200 (usually a big gray welder on a trailer). They're old, (so am I) about bullet proof and are work horses. A combination welder/generator is a good deal. You can use the generator in an emergency to power the homestead. On the other hand if they steal one they got both. With a welder/generator, you can add a mig machine to the mix, later. Mig is mostly a shop proposition due to the shielding gas issues. I have both, use the mig more, but for structural outside work, stick is the only way! (self shielded flux core doesn't count, it's stick on a roll!) Get good PPE. Jacket, gloves auto hood, boots, etc. Wear safety glasses under your hood. Wear ear plugs!! Nothing worse than a piece of hot slag burning your ear canal. You can't get that stuff off fast enough to get it out. Ask me how I know! I like the idea of getting someone who can weld to go with you to try out a prospective welder. Push it hard in the try out period. Also, I'd find a tech school and get into a welding course. It's amazing what you learn. It's hard to weld vertical up and overhead without some real instruction. I'll give you the advice my instructor gave me. "If you're a good fitter, you don't need to be a great weldor. If you're a sorry fitter, you'd better be a GREAT weldor. Spend your money and get a good welder. You can't use amps you didn't buy...it's maddening to hit the duty cycle when you're working and have to wait on the machine to catch up. (more an issue with mig, remember you have to stop to chip slag). Buy the best grinder you can afford. You'll use it 10X more than the welder." Truer words!

Go out to the Welding Web and the Hobart Welding forums. Lots of knowledge for free out there.

Sorry to be so long winded...

Good Luck
Tracker401


----------



## fr3db3ar

I would spend the money for a great generator. Your better off with a lot of power for different items. Don't be afraid to spend a little on a 110 flux core mig as I've used one to weld D-rings on a trailer that holds off road trucks and it will work fine for small jobs. The pain is the short duty cycle but that may not be as large a concern as the convenience. I have a small one for light jobs and a Lincoln 225 for the bigger stuff. welding isn't hard but it doesn't hurt to have someone show you who already knows how. It's cuts down the learning curve.


----------



## El Gato Loco

You guys have all shared a lot of great information. Thanks a lot for taking the time. I think I am sold on either the Miller or the Lincoln 225. It might be overkill for some stuff but I don't want to come up short on the bigger tasks.

I'll be tuning in for any additional replies but thanks a lot for everything already. +1 to all.


----------



## hassell

Some more great advice, minimum 50% duty cycle on any kind of welding setup, otherwise it will only frustrate you when you need the welding power and its not available. Totally agree on taking some courses at a welding school, money well spent Plus you won't be picking up someone else's bad habits.


----------



## El Gato Loco

Well heck... now it looks like i'm in the fabrication business. What does all of this stuff do anyway?


----------



## prairiewolf

Heck if I know, but it looks good ! LOL


----------



## hassell

Welder, torches and a air compressor, your well on your way, did you buy that rig as is and of coarse tried it out. Jeez, if I showed up you'd pretty well cancel any hunting plans HA !!!


----------



## azpredatorhunter

That looks like a great set up Chris! You won't regret it. Now you can build anything you want. Did someone show you how to weld? I am not that far from you if you need some help let me know, I will try to help...


----------



## youngdon

Nice rig ! You'll be fabricating in ways you never dreamed of.


----------



## Bigdrowdy1

_Looks like a desert high seat about to take place!!_


----------



## youngdon

Good call Rodney ! Nicole will love sitting up there !


----------



## hassell

Bigdrowdy1 said:


> _Looks like a desert high seat about to take place!!_


Depends on Who Welded it !!!!


----------



## wilded

[sub]Chris take a look at what I did on my first project. ET[/sub]

[sub]http://wildedtx.blogspot.com/2012/02/learning-new-skills-like-welding-and.html[/sub]

[sub]Mine is just a cheap Harbor freight wire welder.[/sub]


----------



## wilded

[sub]Here is the finished project. ET[/sub]

[sub]http://wildedtx.blog...s-finished.html[/sub]










[sub]







[/sub]

[sub]







[/sub]


----------



## gentlemanJ

Nice!!!! Gud luk w it


----------



## Antlerz22

I am a welder by profession. I am a certified welder and have to update my certifications 2 times a year to be able to weld pressure welds on boilers. I have also been welding 22 years in several disciplines, namely stick, tig (tungsten inert gas) mig (metal inert gas) and flux core. For your intended purpose stick is the way to go. The others are dependant on gas which generally means either you rent the bottles--whether you are actively welding or not, using gas or not you still have a monthly rental. Not to mention taking it in to get refilled etc.. That applies to the fluxcore as well as the mig and tig--- stick however can be used on practically anything and all but real thin metals. You want an ac/dc machine and maybe one that can do other welding like tig if need be. A cheap approach to protecting your eyes and actually helping reduce a lot of grinding is an automatic welding lens. The cheap no frills are about 100$ just the lens no hood--and thats for a 2"x4" lens. So apx 125$~150$ with an auto lens and a fibre metal "tiger" hood is about the cheapest yet user friendly. Non use of an automatic (meaning go old school) generally results in flashburn to the eyes from a novice striking arc just before he actually got the hood down after he nods his head to lower it over the course of a days welding. Trust me I've been to the hospital 3 times for flash burns--you cry like a baby it hurts so bad, not to mention the hospital bill--then you cry some more. No matter what others try to tell you rod wise (like a salesman) 7018 rod is by far the best rod to use on practically everything carbon. Its ductile, strong and flexes a bit before actually breaking--whereas 6010 simply cracks right off the bat, also there is much less splatter and bb's to clean and grind. The leads are very expensive because they are made of copper, thats why they dont come with the machines. If your machine is portable then 50ft leads will work. If its not and has to be in the back of a truck bolted down then 100 ft will be necessary to reach spots that maybe you cant get the truck close enough for 50ft leads. heres a gas welder about as cheap as youre going to get one) and heres one just a welder http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/equipment/stick-welders/Pages/stick-welders.aspx --top one, but for remote usage you also would need a http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/equipment/engine-drives/Pages/engine-drives.aspx-- the outback model) generator to power it--which would be about 1000 for a generator big enough to power it. So a gas driven/powered one IMO is the way to go unless all can be done at your house within reach of your leads. Ive looked at the millers and their smallest welder requires 220v vs the lincoln portable requires 120v and can be also used with 220v. Of making mention ALWAYS when welding wear safety glasses, as they not only protect your eyes from hot flying slag when chipping/slagging a weld, they also protect from uv rays etc..from hurting your eyes from that occasional arc flash that EVERYBODY gets at some time. Lastly if and when you do get set up, the 7018 rod are low hydrogen rods, meaning that they have to be kept dry. And that includes just laying around absorbing moisture from the air. On jobsites we use a portable rod oven set at apx 150 degrees. You dont necessarily need one but once you open the container the rods come in, you need to put what youre not using in an airtight container like originally packaged, and when done welding; keep that inside your house where the temperature is controlled and where moisture cant form inside the container due to getting hot and cold. If you have any more questions just PM me--no question is too trivial or not worth asking.


----------



## bucksquatch

I don't own a welder myself, but my dad has all Miller gear (wirefeed, arc welder and propane setup) and never had problems with any of them. Probably explains why he keeps buying Miller lol


----------



## bucksquatch

Oh and get an auto-darkening helmet, old school flippers are a pain in the a**


----------



## tomz

Well it looks like you have a fab shop on wheels. One thing I would mention is to change the oil in the welder and do it as often as the operators manual says. You can't be sure if the ex owners did a regular maintainance on it. Being around a lot of consturction sites I have seen this a lot. I also would put your leads and hoses in that box when they'er not in use, not only to protect them from the weather and sun but anybody out for some quick money. You will find out what I mean if you happen to lose them, you will scream loudly along with taking a big hit in the wallet. Another good idea is to take your gages off the acc-oxy bottles when not in use. It might not be law where your at but here you have to take them off when not in use or use special guards. Another good idea is to back the tee handle that regulates the prssure off after each use, this helps keep the diaphragm from getting messed up. It's about $60 + to have them worked on depending on what needs worked on.

If your welding on metal that is not clean grind it till it is clean. Remember to keep a tight arc and watch your puddle. And don't be afraid to ask questions, most people will give you an honest awnser.


----------

